Big Wing Sump

[2cams70]

Can you describe how the original Ford swinging gate baffles were fitted and what has been altered in the sump shown that started this thread as it appears similar to many other "original" sump photos on the web

I have attempted to explain in the attached diagram (I did have one photo of the internals of my big wing sump before it was fitted to the engine fortunately). Personally I don't care what sump you use but I do take a little offence when the Escort Big Wing sump is derided as being crap! It's actually quite a clever design based on a standard 1100/1300 sump. Each individual one was obviously hand crafted off line (quite a feat to achieve in a production environment!). Yes some gunge can get trapped between layers and it's not as easy to clean as a single wall sump but there's not much that can't be removed by a good hot tanking and soaking in thinners. You certainly don't need to go to the extent of drilling and grinding out welds trying to separate the layers!!

[ceejay]

I'll let the pictures do the talking. The beauty of a gated and baffled twink sump. This is the sump of my S2 which I baffled about... not sure... probably fifteen years ago, after getting a few hints off Rohan. Now imagine that the gated/baffled design was known about back when they were fiddling with a big wing... which design would have been the one to have? I know which I would build and install.

[2cams70]

Now imagine that the gated/baffled design was known about back when they were fiddling with a big wing... which design would have been the one to have?

If you care to look properly the Escort Twin cam sump is actually a gated and baffled design - just done differently to yours. I don't know which one is or isn't better from a prevention of oil surge point of view but I am saying that there may be some other advantages such as the increased oil capacity that the wings offer. I've attached some further pictures showing the construction of the Escort big wing sump. These things must have been horrendously expensive to manufacture especially to a high volume producer like Ford. Additional costly unique press tooling would have been required and the labour cost for all that skilled hand welding would have been enormous! - it would not have been contracted out to China back then. Clearly they saw the need though to have fitted it to all the performance Escorts with Kent based engines 1,600cc pushrod and upward.

You guys can rest easy though. It won't fit an Elan because of it's rear bowl location.

[2cams70]

The big wing escort sump shown by Ceejay appears to have never had any swinging baffle gates fitted, at least I can see no attachment holes or bolts for one. It also looks identical to the pictures in this link and others

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread. ... ?t=1601869

Wow the butcherer in that link has effectively thrown at least $1,500 down the drain by hacking into that big wing sump like that !!

[rgh0]

Hi Col
Was the top rectangular opening in the windage tray over the sump fitted with a hinged flap or just a fixed baffle. I can't see any hinge mechanism in any photos of these sumps but maybe it is hidden underneath.

In either case I am not sure why its there given all the other gaps around the horizontal tray to allow drainage to the sump and which would have oil coming back out in braking and cornering to some degree.

cheers
Rohan

[ceejay]

Rohan, the big wing sump that I had in the workshop did not have any swinging gate/s installed, all it had was a fixed circular type of baffle where the oil pick up pipe located. But all of that set up was removed from the big wing sump and I fabricated and installed the swinging gate baffle system which you and I are both very familiar with... I do not know where that sump ended up, all I know is that it was off an Escort.

[promotor]

The proper big wing sump has the spring loaded small swinging plate - it's hinged at its rear end and the spring and hinge are hidden from view under what I would call the windage / anti-slosh tray.

It's hard to see in the photos but it's definitely there as I've had a few (although haven't got any photos of my own sumps as I no longer own any).

Colin, the sump shown in your photos has been messed with as it has a big piece welded in underneath cylinders 1,2 & 3, and it looks like where the swinging flap / plate is is just a solid piece of metal that has been bent down in place of the hinged plate? It's certainly not original looking, at least not to how UK sumps look?

[ceejay]

fair enough, as I said in earlier posting, I put the photos up purely out of interest shown from others,and as we all know that over time, things can get changed/altered from what they used to be... happens all of the time. The good the bad and the different.

[2cams70]

The proper big wing sump has the spring loaded small swinging plate

Yes exactly. As I showed earlier in my diagram. I don't think it's spring loaded though. It just hangs open freely due to gravity when it's in the rest position. There's no need for it to have a spring. Admittedly I didn't pay much attention as to how the gate was constructed under the baffle plate in order to observe whether or not it had a spring.

The sumps fitted to Australian Twin Cam Escorts were exactly the same as the UK ones. It must have been successful because the sump design never changed. The pickup design changed a little though. The earlier one was the same as the standard 1100/1300 but ever so slightly bent differently. Later pickups went a little deeper into the sump

[rgh0]

Thanks Promotor
Interesting to see a photo showing the swing baffle in the horizontal top plate. An interesting design and I still struggle to see how it helps much, given the large openings in the horizontal top plate that will let lots of oil out still even if and when the swing baffle closes under braking which it looks like it was intended to do.

But I guess the person who designed the add on double skinned big wing sump thought it would do something otherwise it would not have been included.

The sump photo shown by Col and its top plate certainly looks original and all the rest of the details look similar apart from the fixed rather than swing horizontal baffle. if its not original then someone took a lot of care to copy the original top plate and not to copy the swing baffle .... strange I wonder why.

cheers
Rohan

[2cams70]

You guys are amazing. Just a boys club. I'll leave you to it.

[661]

On the question of oil surge in a racing Elan, my engine builders elegant solution is to "fill to the 'F' of 'FULL'"

I find my engine empties itself to a few mm below the full line on the track. I ascribe this to the oil surge forward under braking leading to the chain picking up oil and flinging it up and loosing oil out the breather in the centre front of the cam cover. Once down to this level I loose no more. I can over fill the sump on the road and never loose anything into the catch tank.

cheers
Rohan

That's interesting, I haven't seen this. I might need to brake harder!
I've had a small amount of oil in the catch tank and a few spots splattered around the engine bay which I think come from the dipstick. I've just put a silicone tube extension over the dipstick holder and that seems to reduce the plaster's radio effect

[vstibbard]

Lotus of interesting views here, today I’d do what Rohan has if wet sump, I have a big wing that umolested and same as the ones pictured with flap.
The views about good bad ugly asides, this was clearly effective in its day and still today, in its day it was used in competition rally escorts etc with significantly more extreme forces as play and proved effective in the London Sydney cars Mexico’s etc.
CJ I have an early sump that has a small crack by the real seal groove, otherwise in terrific condition, would you modify it to later lip seal and add the gates etc as I don’t have your fabrication and welding skills?
Cheers
Vaughan

[vstibbard]

Graeme,
I saw your comment about Brands, brought back memories of thrashing brand new Nissan ZX turbos when they were launched, the went like dogs shot in the ar…se, no brakes after about three laps! The manual cars had LSD and were easy to control with massive power slides and smoke everywhere. The day ended early with steel belts showing on tyres and warped disks!
The other time, my S4 Elan, road going set up and just as quick around the circuit.
Hope you ironed out al the inevitable set up and teething issues with the GTS Elan, and starting to get settled into it?
Cheers V

[rgh0]

You guys are amazing. Just a boys club. I'll leave you to it.

Hi 2cams70

I have long been interested in all sump designs for twin cams and I was asking questions and just trying to understand the design of the escort sump and this thread with your input is one of the few that has gone fully into the details of its construction and I thank you for that. It is what it is and it has worked successfully for many years, no question about that.

Whether it is a "good" design or not is a personal judgement and depends on what aspect you are talking about and it is legitimate to have differing and strong opinions as long as they are expressed about the topic and not the person making them.

cheers
Rohan