Head gaskets and oil breathing

[groucho]

As part of installing a Burton water pump conversion, I find myself removing the head off my poor Elan for the third time in five years.I am a little concerned about the latest head gasket I've received.

When I pulled the engine for the first time, it was to replace the valves and related work after it burnt a valve. The existing gasket was copper and steel on one side and all steel on the other. The new one was copper with thin steel rings around the cylinders.

A year later, I found a bunch of coolant in one of the cylinders and, upon tearing it down, discovered that coolant has eaten its way through the copper and past the thin steel ring. Here's the grisly photo.

The next gasket I received, from the same vendor, had more steel in it, felt thicker, and was definitely sturdier. That, combined with some new ARP head bolts and a retorquing a little ahead of schedule, kept things in check for the past three years.

Now, the latest head gasket that I received is the mostly-copper style with the thin steel rings only around the cylinders - compare and contrast in the above photo. Should I be concerned? I notice that there is a little bit of extra crud around one of the holes between 2 & 3 - this is where the earlier one failed, and I think there may be a very slight depression in the block itself there. I am really not interested in pulling the block at this point - especially as it got by fine the past three years - should I perhaps put a little sealant around that passage to try to keep things in check? Is there something else I should do?

While I've got the head off, I am wondering again about what's happened with this head in the past - specifically, that the oil breather hole has been plugged up, as you can see in the photo below. (That photo is from back before the valves were redone.) This means that the nice new oil breather tube that I bought a few years ago cannot be installed. The hole in the block has an elbow messily attached with a clear plastic tube a couple feet long or so which is just open on the other end. There is some breather just to the left of the carbs, also visible in the photo, which currently just has a short elbow and nothing else attached. Is this the one that is supposed to go to the airbox? Right now, it just likes to blow oil around the engine bay occasionally. The other one bugs me as it is so loosely attached and is obviously completely wrong, but I just have no idea about what I should do about it. I'm really hoping that this is the last time I'll have to pull the head for quite a while, so this is my last chance to get things right!

On a mostly unrelated note, this car has had the wrong engine mount on the carb side for probably decades, which I only recently discovered - which explained the deep rut cut into the fiberglass under the airbox, to the point where gas or oil would occasionally drip onto the passenger's feet! I've installed the correct mount now and was surprised at just how much higher the airbox sits. NOW, I'll actually be able to reach those bottom bolts on the carbs! Now to add fiberglass repair of that area to my already long list of projects... I'm also curious to see if the engine sounds any different when it's not jammed up against the body on side any longer.

[rgh0]

The first "mainly copper" gasket failure shown looks like gas leaking past the steel fire ring eroded the copper until it failed. I don't think it was due to simply the coolant corroding the copper so putting sealant in that area will not help, I presume you use antifreeze suitable for the Elan with its copper radiator and head gasket and regularly change it out. If the other style of gasket "with more steel" worked for you then I would try to find another one the same, I have never seen one like that so I don't know who makes them . The fibre composite style gaskets I find are better than the sheet copper / steel gaskets and are more tolerant of non flat heads and blocks in my experience but to be confident of any style head gasket working you really need to be sure the block and head are flat and properly torqued down and re-torqued as specified.

Continuing to use the side breather vent with the drain hole blocked will lead to significant oil loss out the breather pipe and onto the road. You really need to remove the plug and reinstate the drain tube ( how is the block end plugged?) and then route the breather to the air box assuming it not an early car that just had the breather going down on the road.

cheers
Rohan

[groucho]

I presume you use antifreeze suitable for the Elan with its copper radiator and head gasket and regularly change it out.

Wellllll... for the past few years, it was losing so much coolant that I admit with some shame that I was just using water and would carry some extra with me. I would go broke putting antifreeze in it. I finally realized that water was steadily dripping from the front cover and the fan mount was a bit wobbly, so that's why the Burton water pump conversion is going in now. I look forward to actually putting real antifreeze in her again! I also, a couple years ago, removed the engine-mounted fan and installed an electric fan.

Continuing to use the side breather vent with the drain hole blocked will lead to significant oil loss out the breather pipe and onto the road. You really need to remove the plug and reinstate the drain tube ( how is the block end plugged?) and then route the breather to the air box assuming it not an early car that just had the breather going down on the road.

It is an early car - well, an S2 built in April 1965 from what I can tell, so fairly early. I would not be surprised if the breather has always just vented down towards the road, but I wonder if it should be changed to use the later breather tube, or if that's even an option, or just what is the best choice. The head has the hole there, it's just plugged - and I am too nervous to attempt to remove that plug as I have no idea if I'd making things any better or worse. I'm learning as quickly as I can but I admit the whole "oil breathing" thing is not something I've taken the time to understand yet.

I try to make the car at least a little bit better each year but this year has by far the most projects for the car lined up! It's had a lot of bodging over the years and I'm trying to put things as right as I can.

[AHM]

I can't afford not to put antifreeze in!

Apart from the corrosion aluminium oxide will reduce cooling in the head..... Apart from corrosion the rust will settle and reduce cooling in the block. I'll guess that you use tap water and that furs the radiator up.

You don't use corrosion inhibitor ....and wonder why your head gaskets are failing? On balance I don't think the construction of the head gasket is the root cause

I can't help you further than that as I use distilled water and antifreeze and change it regularly which seems to work

Your first refill with Antifreeze will quickly deposit its anti-corrosives on the untreated surfaces so you will need to change it after a month or so.

Antifreeze.... So much cheaper than a new engine!

[groucho]

I can't afford not to put antifreeze in!

Apart from the corrosion aluminium oxide will reduce cooling in the head..... Apart from corrosion the rust will settle and reduce cooling in the block. I'll guess that you use tap water and that furs the radiator up.

You don't use corrosion inhibitor ....and wonder why your head gaskets are failing? On balance I don't think the construction of the head gasket is the root cause

I can't help you further than that as I use distilled water and antifreeze and change it regularly which seems to work

Your first refill with Antifreeze will quickly deposit its anti-corrosives on the untreated surfaces so you will need to change it after a month or so.

Antifreeze.... So much cheaper than a new engine!

To be fair, one head gasket failed, and in one specific spot where there may be a block issue. Yes, I know that I should use antifreeze, and did until I started losing lots of coolant in the past couple years. I'm trying to make things better so that whatever goes into the radiator doesn't end up on the ground a few miles later.

[AHM]

Don't forget also that the correct twincam head gasket has a different arrangement for the coolant holes.

Make sure that the head is clean so that oil doesn't drip onto the gasket surface when you are replacing the head.

If you are looking to put things right put the Thackery washers under the nuts holding the carbs on.

[groucho]

If you are looking to put things right put the Thackery washers under the nuts holding the carbs on.

I did, and also much better carb gaskets than in the photo. All the carb mounting hardware is new. That photo was from back in 2009 when I took the head off for the first time.

[nomad]

An effective "bodge" as you folks in jolly ol would call it is to strip a strand of copper wire out of a power cord and form it around any questionable corroded coolant passages when you fit a new head gasket. Won't work on compression leaks but will hold a seep.

Just sayin....

Kurt
26/3754

[billwill]

I don't think that anyone has made clear to you yet that the central hole on the underside of the head that has been blocked up should instead have a tapered rubber tube about inch and a half big at the top and about an inch wide at the bottom and about two inches long.

There is a hole in the block immediately below it into which the bottom of this rubber tube fits, so presumably that has also been blocked in your case.

The other hole on the underside towards the rear should be blocked with a proper core plug.

The area of the head into which those two holes go is a condensation chamber distinct from the main cam chamber. Oil vapour condenses in there and returns to the sump via the aforementioned tapered rubber tube.

With it blocked it will accumulate oil in there which I presume will eventually spill out of the actual breather hole on the vertical surface just to the rear of #4 inlet branch.

The right-angle rubber 'plug' you mention is the fitting for the straight pipe which wnt down over the bell housing and vented oil fumes onto the road. It was secured by a welded tang with a hole in it for the bell housing bolt.

If you want to convert to the more modern arrangement where it vents into the air box, of the carbs you may need to get an airbox that has the corresponding short tube facing that breather hole (or make and solder one into your airbox.

You will also need the short breather pipe (which has a wire gauze filer in it), the relevant straight rubber grommet to fit the breather hole plus a short piece of rubber hose and two jubilee clips.

~~~~~

There is a tendency for #4 spark plug to oil up with that system and so some of us prefer to lead the breather to a suitable catch tank which we can empty from time to time. The right-angle grommet that you already have is more convenient for arranging such a system and an aluminium cyclists drink bottle makes a convenient catch tank. Remember to leave a pressure-vent hole in the stopper of the catch tank.

[groucho]

I don't think that anyone has made clear to you yet that the central hole on the underside of the head that has been blocked up should instead have a tapered rubber tube about inch and a half big at the top and about an inch wide at the bottom and about two inches long.

There is a hole in the block immediately below it into which the bottom of this rubber tube fits, so presumably that has also been blocked in your case.

Hi Bill, thanks for the reply. I actually bought one of those rubber pipes the first time I pulled the head, to discover that it couldn't be installed. The correspoding hole in the block is there and is the elbow I spoke of originally that connects to a largish plastic tube that runs towards the front of the car, opening towards the road. That's the one that really bugs me. I need to, at the minimum, get that elbow connected in a more secure way. I would probably prefer to get that plug out and put in the correct rubber pipe, but I have no idea what it'd take to remove the plug or what I'll find behind it - presumably there was some reason that it was plugged in the first place.

The right-angle rubber 'plug' you mention is the fitting for the straight pipe which wnt down over the bell housing and vented oil fumes onto the road. It was secured by a welded tang with a hole in it for the bell housing bolt.

If you want to convert to the more modern arrangement where it vents into the air box, of the carbs you may need to get an airbox that has the corresponding short tube facing that breather hole (or make and solder one into your airbox.

Hmm - maybe I need to spend some time poring over the parts manual to see what is supposed to be there according to that versus what I have.

There is a tendency for #4 spark plug to oil up with that system and so some of us prefer to lead the breather to a suitable catch tank which we can empty from time to time. The right-angle grommet that you already have is more convenient for arranging such a system and an aluminium cyclists drink bottle makes a convenient catch tank. Remember to leave a pressure-vent hole in the stopper of the catch tank.

That's not a bad idea. I've already had to come up with my own coolant overflow tank (again, what was there when I got the car was nothing, just a hose pointing to the ground) so I'm sure I can handle an oil catcher. The car will never be "original" so I'm not concerned with it looking exactly right as long as it works well.

An effective "bodge" as you folks in jolly ol would call it is to strip a strand of copper wire out of a power cord and form it around any questionable corroded coolant passages when you fit a new head gasket. Won't work on compression leaks but will hold a seep.

Just sayin....

Kurt
26/3754

Well, I'm a Yank; I just say "bodge" as an Anglophile. My grandparents were British, does that count?

[nomad]

Count's!

Actually "bodge" is more descriptive and printable than most Yank terms I've heard for such repairs. My mom's a Kiwi and my grandmother was Welsh and I tend to use the unprintable Yank descriptions most of the time.

Kurt
26/3754

[billwill]

Oh, I slightly mis-read your original post.

Anyway, the oil drain tapered rubber pipe is shown in the diagram on this page:
http://www.lotuselan.net/wiki/EA_-_Engine_-_Block
numbered 22

It goes from the head to a hole in the block which is just above the fittings for the mechanical fuel pump.

Your previous owner appears to have converted that to a breather for the crank-case, without providing any exit for the accumulated condensed oil in the head's condensation chamber.

The right-angle grommet I mentioned is not the one you mention in that 'abovethepump' hole, {unless by coincidence the hole is the same size as the breather hole in the head (to the rear of inlet #4) and the previous owner moved the rubber grommet.}

Does your air box for the carburettors have the short pipe facing the breather hole in the head?


<later>
Ah you said ""There is some breather just to the left of the carbs, also visible in the photo, which currently just has a short elbow and nothing else attached. Is this" and I see it in the photo. That 'short elbow you mention is the rubber grommet I meant. The fact that you have that grommet implies that your car used to have the 'open pipe' breather pipe over the bell housing that I mentioned above and it is unlikely that your airbox has the relevant input short pipe at the back.

As to the mysterious plug where the top of the tapered oil drain should go, it is almost certainly a standard 'core plug' disc like the other one. The method for removing core plugs is to drill a quarter inch hole in the middle then poke a rod or strong screwdriver into the hole and lever sideways and it should bend and come out. There should be just empty space of the condensation chamber behind it.

Core plugs are supplied slightly domed; you put then in the recces with dome outwards and then using a rod and hammer hit the centre of the dome to flatten the disc. This pushes the edges of the disc outwards to grip in the hole.

[billwill]

The picture on this page:
http://www.lotuselan.net/wiki/EJ_-_Engine_-_Airbox
shows the standard breathers.


15. The right angle elbow grommet (or whatever you want to call it )
17. the old style vent-to-road pipe



16. Straight grommet for the airbox re-breather system
18 the pipe from head to airbox (which has a wire mesh filter inside, I think this may be to prevent a fire flashback to the oil vapour if the carbs spit fire to their trumpets)

4. The squared airbox is the one with the connector for the re-breather.

[groucho]

Thanks Bill. so you think I should be able to pop that plug off and then use the correct rubber breather piece between the head and the block?

I took a couple more photos to show what we're talking about. Here's the elbow coming out of the block, where the breather hose to the head "should" be.

This is the elbow coming out of the back of the head, it looks like #15 on the EJ drawing. I don't have (at least, not on the car - maybe in one of my pile of parts) #17, the pipe that points down, which I believe is the one that you're suggesting putting a catchcan on. The rubber hose that is pointing upwards in the photo is used for a vacuum gauge.

Unfortunately, I forgot to take a photo of the airbox, but I found this photo used on this forum, mine is like the one on the bottom, without the hose connection.

[billwill]

You won't need the original straight vent pipe if you are going to make a catch can, just some ordinary plumbing bits and a short length of metal tube to push into that rubber elbow to connect whatever long tube you use to go to your catch can.

You might want to consider jamming some wire mesh into the short metal tube. some stainless steel mesh (sold to put in kettles to 'catch' the deposits from hard water) would be ideal.


I see that your mechanical fuel pump has been removed so you could do the same as I have done, though completely at your own risk, {I do not know if there is any hazard caused by having the catch tank under the carburettors}. You would need to find a new way to secure it as mine is held by a blanked off pipe to the airbox. And like me you would need to buy a turkey baster and some thin polythene piping to suck the condensed-oil gunge out of the alloy bottle.

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