VW CV joint conversion plans

[pinsx3]

Do we have on our site a detailed description of how to do the VW CV joint
conversion thing to an Elan? I mean pictures, measurements and the like?
Help much appreciated. Pete Steilberg

[elanplus2]

Peter,

I am in the process of doing this conversion and you can save yourself a lot of time and hassle by purchasing four adapter plates from KW Historics inAuckland NZ (***@***.***) and then obtaining the right Audi 80 drive shafts and CV joints locally.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Steilberg [mailto:***@***.***

Do we have on our site a detailed description of how to do the VW CV joint
conversion thing to an Elan? I mean pictures, measurements and the like?
Help much appreciated. Pete Steilberg


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["e s"]

Are the Audi 80 shafts the right length?
What year? They are named differently in the US/GB

If you still have to cut and weld then
IT wouldn't matter what you get. --

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:34:37
From: "Edwards, Ray" <***@***.***>



Peter,

I am in the process of doing this conversion and you can save yourself a lot of time and hassle by purchasing four adapter plates from KW Historics inAuckland NZ (***@***.***) and then obtaining the right Audi 80 drive shafts and CV joints locally.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Steilberg [mailto:***@***.***

Do we have on our site a detailed description of how to do the VW CV joint
conversion thing to an Elan? I mean pictures, measurements and the like?
Help much appreciated. Pete Steilberg


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[elanplus2]

Hi,

No, they require cutting down, sleeving and rewelding.

Audi 80 is a global term, AFAIK.

It does matter what you get as they have to match the ready made adapter plates i was talking about.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: e s [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2004 11:53 a.m.

Are the Audi 80 shafts the right length?
What year? They are named differently in the US/GB

If you still have to cut and weld then
IT wouldn't matter what you get. --


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solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
The views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch
City Council.

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[gjz30075]

--- In ***@***.***, Peter Steilberg <psteilberg@m...>
wrote:



Pete,
I have two pictures in the files section, labeled axle1 and axle2.
No writeup or specs, just pics. Hope they help somewhat.


Greg Z.

[roadterror]

Ray,

How much are the adapter plates and how much of the drive shaft has to be
removed for the assembly to fit into an Elan Sprint? I've purchased a CV
conversion from Steve of the Elan Factory which uses the VW CVs and has a
complete uncut shaft. Just weighing the costs differences and future
maintainence problems. Appears to me that new Audi 80 CVs might cost more
than the VW ones..... as do most of the other Audi parts. Anyone tried using
Mecedes CVs??? Looks really do-able and lots of Mercs scrapped around these
parts! An idea would be universal adapter plates which can utilize a variety
of CVs.....

Cheers,
Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Edwards, Ray" <***@***.***>


Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 5:34 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] RE: VW CV joint conversion plans


Peter,

I am in the process of doing this conversion and you can save yourself a lot
of time and hassle by purchasing four adapter plates from KW Historics in
Auckland NZ (***@***.***) and then obtaining the right Audi 80 drive
shafts and CV joints locally.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Steilberg [mailto:***@***.***

Do we have on our site a detailed description of how to do the VW CV joint
conversion thing to an Elan? I mean pictures, measurements and the like?
Help much appreciated. Pete Steilberg


**********************************************************************
This electronic email and any files transmitted with it are intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
The views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch
City Council.

If you are not the correct recipient of this email please advise the
sender and delete.

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[elanplus2]

Hi Brian,

I priced out the Elan factory conversion and while the price was competitive, it was still way dearer than what i made my set for.

The Audi CV's were the expensive bit. I think they were just an evolution of the traditional Kombi based system. I had to use these because the adapter plate I have was designed for these. Future conversions sets i make will be based on a cheaper CV and shaft.

As for the one piece Elan factory shafts, I don't know what these were sourced from, but you should find out in case you ever have to replace a CV.

As for using Merc shafts etc, if you can find one that fits and then have the adapter plate then sure, why not.

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Chan [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2004 1:57 p.m.
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] RE: VW CV joint conversion plans


Ray,

How much are the adapter plates and how much of the drive shaft has to be
removed for the assembly to fit into an Elan Sprint? I've purchased a CV
conversion from Steve of the Elan Factory which uses the VW CVs and has a
complete uncut shaft. Just weighing the costs differences and future
maintainence problems. Appears to me that new Audi 80 CVs might cost more
than the VW ones..... as do most of the other Audi parts. Anyone tried using
Mecedes CVs??? Looks really do-able and lots of Mercs scrapped around these
parts! An idea would be universal adapter plates which can utilize a variety
of CVs.....

Cheers,
Brian


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solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
The views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch
City Council.

If you are not the correct recipient of this email please advise the
sender and delete.

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[Arno Church]

IIRC I have posted , some 2 to 3 years ago a description and pictures - I may have sent the pictures direct to those who requested
and I could send them to you direct
In short, I used VW Golf Mk 1 , 1300 cc CV's as they were the smallest dia I could find, I used the inner halves of the same Golf side shafts - used 4to make 2. The shafts were cut and then welded, sleeved and welded again.I used 6062 ali for the adapter plates, which I turned myself
After 3 years of use, including a few track days , absolutely no problems
BTW I am not an engineer by trade or training , so any decent engineer could make it up
Arno

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Steilberg
To: '***@***.***'
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 11:20 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] VW CV joint conversion plans


Do we have on our site a detailed description of how to do the VW CV joint
conversion thing to an Elan? I mean pictures, measurements and the like?
Help much appreciated. Pete Steilberg

[rgh0]

As Arno said the production of the CV joint conversion is simple and
any decent engineer could do one. However that is not to say it is a
trivial matter. If your interested in understanding a little more
about ho to do it, read some of my history in doing this, if not
ignore this post.

The first drawing I saw was of an adapter plate for a VW CV about 20
years ago and was published in the Club Lotus Australia magazine. I
recently saw this same drawing on a lotus web site but cant remember
what site unfortunately. If you come across this drawing use it
carefully as its dimensions for the bolt holes in the adapter are
actually incorrect.

I have never seen any other published drawing. Those who do it
commercially naturally dont publish the drawings they use and those
who do it privately dont do drawings it seems. I developed my own
drawings for the elan and plus 2 drive shafts, adapter plates and a
sealing plate to maximise CV plunge available starting from the CLA
adapter plate drawings of 20 years ago but never built it myself.
This initial work evolved over the last 10 plus years into the CV
conversion supplied now made by the Elan Trikbits and supplied by
them and the Elan Factory so I dont feel it proper to publish my
drawings now unfortunately.

If you really want to develop you own conversion then here are a few
items to consider when developing your project and costing it versus
a commercial supplier. Recognise that while I have no commercial
connection with the Elan Factory apart from spending lots of money
there I am somewhat biased in my preference for their product because
of my involvement in its development, blah blah blah.

1. There are 2 types of CV joints of the right size commonly
available. One is what I call the "Japanese" style CV's where the
joint is built into the shaft and this is not easy to adapted for a
Lotus. The second is what I call the "German" style CV where the
joint is a separate component that bolts and fits with a spline to
the shafts. These I know are are used by VW, Audi, BMW and probably
also by Mercedes and Porsche and potentially other European
manufacturers ( Saab I know used Japanese style CV's, I have never
looked at Volvos, French and Italian cars in this respect !). The
German style CV's are made in standard sizes, splines and bolt
pitches by a number of manufacturers the most common being
branded "Lobro". The internal details of similarly sized CV's differ
and this can affect the working angles and plunge of the various CV's
but apart from this they appear interchangeable and the various car
companies have use CV's from different manufacturers over the years
judging by the samples I have seen from various cars and wreckers.

2. You need to select which standard CV joint you want to use and
find an industrial bearings / drive systems supplier who will supply
straight from the manufacturer as the price will be about half that
of new ones from a car company part dept. Otherwise pick a locally
reliable source of second hand ones from a wrecker.

3. You then need to make your own shafts or cut and join a shaft from
a car that uses the same CV joint spline as you have selected. The
Elan and Plus 2 intermediate shaft is shorter than those used by most
manufacturers so easier enough to cut and shorten any shaft that uses
the same CV's at both ends. This is typically a rear shaft from BMW,
Audi or VW as the front shafts often have different arrangements for
the outboard CV's because of the steering angle that has to be
accomodated. Thus if you use front shafts you may need 4 to make 2
useable shafts for your Lotus. Making you own shafts just requires
access to a good machinist who can cut splines to match the Cv's in a
billet steel shaft of the right quality. Cutting and welding existng
shafts requires access to a good machinist and good welder to end up
with a shaft which is both straight and strong enough. With a very
good pressure pipeline quality welder that I used you dont need to
sleeve the join, with an average welder sleeving the join is a good
idea.

3. The Elan installation works a CV joint to its extreme travel
limits in both plunge and angle so in building your own you need to
get a lot of things right by design or be lucky.

eg.

Shaft length needs to be selected to use the CV plunge correctly get
it to long or to short and you run out of plunge travel in the Cv's

The shaft comes out past the end of the Cv joint on maximum
compression of the assembly. You need to have a thick and
specifically machined adpater plate to accomodate this and seal the
outboard and inboard ends of the CV's or a dished sealing plate over
the ends of the adapter plate.

Angular limits can come from the rubber bellows metal adapter plate
to the CV or from the CV internal balls and races design itself.
Different limits arise from diiferent manufacturers and date of
manufacture. Eg Later VW bellows will not accomodate the same angle
as earlier one.

Required angular travel depends on the shocks you use so you may need
to limit droop in some way. Almot all combinations of CV joints and
non original shocks in an Elan appear to need to limit the droop. In
a Plus 2 less combinations are problematic but a droop limit is still
often needed. It is not easy to detect the CV's joins binding on
maximum droop. You need to check that the intermediate shaft is free
to float at maximum droop and that this does not change as the joint
is rotated.

4. The bolting of the adapter plates to the 3 arm spiders on the
lotus drive shafts needs careful attention. Bolts into the adapter
plates is the common approach and if you do this you need to drill
and wire the bolts or use other methods to ensure they dont come
undone ( plus loctite, lock washers , careful torquing etc etc). The
Elan factory / Elan Trikbits design evolved from my experience with
these bolts coming loose under racing conditions and now uses a
captive bolt head in the adpater plate and a nyloc nut arrangement
which is the right engineering solution.

After you have worked through all these issues think about whether
you really want to make them yourself. If confident you can address
them all do it, but if not, buy a kit from one of the commercial
suppliers.

Rohan

[lotuselan2]

I'll just add one thing to Rohan's description of the use of CV joints from
other sources. Virtually all Formula Ford's 1600, 2000, and many other
formula cars even with a lot more power use the "German" style CV joints.
When the original "Bugs" were still being sold people used factory VW parts
and then Lobro took over after the bug got swatted.

Most FF's have much wider track then our Elans and +2s, so I don't think
someone can go out and search 400 makes of Formula car and find just the
right shaft from a 1976 Crossle or whatever. But it sure would be nice. Of
course since Hewland gearbox's were originally VW boxes with the gears
changed, the CV joint fit right to the output shafts. Then the car builder
just put the same bolt pattern onto the hub shaft. Now why didn't Colin
think of that? He built FF's!

Ken
'69 +2 with BDR

[s2lola]

Custom CV joint/axles are buildable, and not that expensive. Had one done
for my March last year by Taylor Engineering, and am very impressed. All
axle lengths are available from pre-splined stock.

Bill Tebbutt

-----Original Message-----
From: lotus [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 2004/05/11 08:39
To: ***@***.***
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] VW CV joint conversion plans


I'll just add one thing to Rohan's description of the use of CV joints from
other sources. Virtually all Formula Ford's 1600, 2000, and many other
formula cars even with a lot more power use the "German" style CV joints.
When the original "Bugs" were still being sold people used factory VW parts
and then Lobro took over after the bug got swatted.

Most FF's have much wider track then our Elans and +2s, so I don't think
someone can go out and search 400 makes of Formula car and find just the
right shaft from a 1976 Crossle or whatever. But it sure would be nice. Of
course since Hewland gearbox's were originally VW boxes with the gears
changed, the CV joint fit right to the output shafts. Then the car builder
just put the same bolt pattern onto the hub shaft. Now why didn't Colin
think of that? He built FF's!

Ken
'69 +2 with BDR




















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[lotuselan2]

Bill
Do you have a web site for Taylor Engineering?
Ken

[lotuselan2]

Found it, wonders of Google
http://www.taylor-race.com/

[s2lola]

http://www.taylor-race.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: lotus [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 2004/05/11 14:42
To: ***@***.***
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] VW CV joint conversion plans


Bill
Do you have a web site for Taylor Engineering?
Ken



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***********************************************************************************Due to the security risks involved in sending information over the Internet, National Bank Financial and NBCN can not be held responsible for ensuring the confidentiality and integrity of the present e-mail. For this reason, the opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of National Bank Financial and NBCN.
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