On Car Wheel Balancing

[tdafforn]

Hi Guys,
Have been wrestling with a nasty vibration on the +2 since fitting new front tyres earlier this year..
Vibration was intermittent (5 secs on, 5 secs off) and could be felt from 50 mph upwards..
Anyhow, multiple trips to multiple tyre guys (always ended up with different balance weights in different places) which at best left the vibration the same, and at worst split the rim of one wheel and left the vibration far worse..
Anyhow today as a last resort went to some guys near Silverstone (Vibration Free) http://www.vibrationfree.co.uk/recommended on this forum in the past.
Wonderful!
balanced all 4 wheels on the car (fronts were off the scale with imbalance!) and bobs your uncle, not vibration up to and beyond motorway speeds!
Beautiful..
Tim (well chuffed)

PS No financial interest in the these guys yadda yadda!

[bcmc33]

Tim,

You didn't say what they did differently to all the others - apart from leaving you with a vibration free car, of course.

[paddy]

Surely this must be another instance of the "peg holes not concentric with centre hole" problem that's been discussed before?

Is this exclusively a peg drive problem? Has anyone with bolt-ons had a similar problem (ie the wheel appears to be balanced in itself, but is not balanced when fitted to car) ?

Paddy

[rocket]

I think what they did differently Brian was to balance the wheels whilst on the car..


Ian.

[69S4]

Hi Guys,
Have been wrestling with a nasty vibration on the +2 since fitting new front tyres earlier this year..
Vibration was intermittent (5 secs on, 5 secs off) and could be felt from 50 mph upwards..
Tim

That's exactly the characteristic I had on a motorcycle about three years ago except in my case it was two secs on / two secs off and over 60 (ish)

Both wheels were way out of balance (about 100gms each) so each was vibrating but because they were different sizes and therefore revolving at different rates the vibrations went in and out of phase. Nice and smooth when they cancelled each other out but bad enough in phase to break an exhaust bracket.

Easy enough to identify and fix with only two wheels but with four same size wheels the possible combinations must be tricky to sort out.

Stuart

[bcmc33]

I think what they did differently Brian was to balance the wheels whilst on the car..

Ian,

That was my first thought when reading Tim's message, but I still wanted to hear his story.

[tdafforn]

yep,
They balanced the wheels while they were on the car..
Involved putting a sensor on the stub axle assembly and then running the wheel up to 60 mph while monitoring the vibration intensity and phase. Then the box of tricks they used marked, with a strobe, the position of the wheel weight (much like a standard off car wheel balancer.
I am sure that the original problem could have been caused by off centre peg holes, could also be a slight buckle ( the wheels are >30 years old and by all accounts pretty thin).
Whatever the problem, it isn't one any more.
Should also note that before trying these guys the wheels had been to 4 tyre shops for balancing in the normal way, with no luck!
(Also agree with you, Stuart, the variation in vibration was probably the two front wheels (the ones out of balance) coming in an out of phase..)

Cheers
tim

[tdafforn]

Whoops...
Forgot to say, these guys say they are the only people in the UK who currently do on-car wheel balancing...
Have to say that in my online research I didn't find anyone else..
Tim

[rcraven]

Presumably you now have to remember to put the wheel back in exactly the same position if you take it off for some reason.

[bcmc33]

Forgot to say, these guys say they are the only people in the UK who currently do on-car wheel balancing...

In the good-old-days (60's), the only way to balance the front wheels on a Cooper"S" was to do it on the car - wheels and studs were suitably marked to ensure they were put back together the same way. The reason for not being able to get acceptable balance from the wheels alone was put down to the affect of the driveshafts. True or not, the result was always good.

Now with Elan front wheels needing to be balanced on the car to get an acceptable result strikes me as quite worrying. Balancing on the car addresses symptoms of out-of-balance and not the root cause - which if it were my car I would be eagerly investigating.

On the front hubs there should be very little reasons for any out-of-balance that affects the wheels - but in Tim's case there does appear to be something, and that's what would be a worry for me.

[tdafforn]

Hi,
I think the real reason seemed to be a difficulty getting a reproducible mounting on the conventional wheel balancing machine (probably because the pegs are slight out of alignment with the central hole?, the conventional machine using the central hole for alignment)
Interestingly the rear wheels which were balanced a few years ago turned out to still be in perfect balance. it was only the fronts that were way out, and by way out I mean a 50g weight in completely the wrong place!
In the end the outcome was a good one, fast cruising in the winter sun
Cheers
Tim

[david.g.chapman]

I have had problems with front wheel imbalance in the past - and I nearly went to "Vibration Free" as well. I think I have solved my problem by:

1. Making sure the wheel locates on the central hole rather than the pegs (enlarging the wheel peg holes slightly to make sure - no more than 10 thou or so - front wheels only).
2. Taking up all the sideways play in the wheel nuts with PTFE tape on the two or three threads nearest the wheel. If you have play when you move the nut from side to side, the wheel will not centre. The nuts have not loosened so far!
3. Check that the radial run-out of the wheel is no more than 1-2 mm.
4. Check the steering column bushes for any play - if they are new and pressing slightly on the column this has the effect of damping down imbalance felt at the wheel. I can put a 20 gram weight on a front wheel and still not get any shake. The steering still feels OK.

Dave Chapman

[andyelan]

Hi Tim

Thanks very much for this info. and I'm pleased to hear you recommendation

I'm currently having my Plus 2 alloys refurbished but I too was thinking of taking my car to these people in the spring to get the wheels balanced. Like yourself I haven't been able to find anyone else here in the UK who can do on-car balancing but, if it's done properly, this has to be the best way to go. It takes account of all the errors from the peg drive/wheel nut location and also any unbalance of brake disc and drive shafts etc.

One thing I did wonder about was if there would be any problems with the rear wheels, running them against the diff and also with the suspension droop. I assume they support the car the rear under wishbones to minimise suspension droop while spinning up the wheels

Finally, to answer another question, I do have almost as much of a problem getting good wheel balance on my Europa Special as I do on the Plus 2, that's in spite of the fact that it's on bolt-on alloys

Regards
Andy

[elanmac]

It is worth trying the main dealers of the popular 4x4s Ford/ Vauxhall/Landrover etc.
as a few years ago it was normal to have the wheels balanced on these vehicles with oncar balancers.
Mac

[ppnelan]

I have a small hand-spin wheel balancer, but haven't been able to calibrate it well enough yet. I have tried mounting an old front hub on it to attach Elan wheels in the 'on-car way', but have noticed that the machined hub casting is far from accurate. A big eccentric cast iron lump like this is bound to cause problems, which makes me think this could be a big part of the problem - some 'Friday afternoon' cars seem to struggle with vibration while others with better-made parts have no problems...

Matthew