Steel Wheel Inbalance - Are Alloys The Answer?

[david.g.chapman]

I still have the original steel wheels fitted to my +2, and have fiddled about for some years now to minimise wheel inbalance wobble at 72 to 90 mph. It is now not bad, but I still get that vibro massage feeling from the steering wheel (front wheels) and the seat of the pants (all wheels?).

Incidently, the lateral run-out of the wheels is 1 mm or less.

For people with Minilite and other alloy wheels, is this a thing of the past or do any of you still have problems?

Would a particular steering setup minimise the sensitivity of the steering wheel (such as toe-in)?

Dave Chapman

[Barney]

Have you tried finding somewhere that will balance the wheels while still on the car?
(Haven't seen such a machine for a few years now - used to be FWD dealers chiefly - but I'm not in the trade to say for sure. . .)

Might be something other that the steel wheels

Cheers
Barney

[mikealdren]

Barney,
I agree, I had a similar problem and went to Alloys. I was disappointed as I always prefered the looks of the chrome rim steel wheels.

The Alloys didn't solve the problem and I later found two causes of vibration, the disks had runout and the 5 speed propshaft had been wrongly re-assmebled by a PO so that the splines were set so the Hookes joints (UJs) were not aligned correctly.

Mike

[david.g.chapman]

I would be good if the wheels were not the problem, but I have no idea what else it could be. I checked the propshaft recently and there was no play in the UJs.

I do not know at what speed an out of balance propshaft would show up. The wheel bearings are OK.

On the car balancers are a thing of the past in my area.

My discs are new and braking is smooth.

Dave Chapman.

[cabc26b]

Maybe too simle but have you removed the tires/tyres off the rims and spun the rims alone ? if you have a lathe you cn do it yourself or spin them at the tire store , at least you will have a sense if you are chaseing the right problem ...

[Foxie]

I often found it difficult to get good balance with steel wheels, even after checking all the usual suspects. I changed to Two Gates Minilites quite a few years ago, and found it just as difficult.

The problem may be partly due to the fact that the wheel is located on the hub by the drive pegs, and not principally by the centre opening which is how it's located on the balancing machine. The balance machine can eliminate "couple" unbalance, but it may be off-centre. So on-car balancing would then eliminate this factor.

I have watched an operator get a zero read-out on the balance machine. When he removed it, I asked him to check again. There was now 60 grams unbalance on the "electronically computer balanced" wheel. So now I always request the balance to be double checked.

Rotating the wheel position relative to the drive pegs sometimes makes a difference. Mark the hub and wheel as a guide.

Whatever about the prop-shaft, front wheel inbalance is invariably felt at the steering wheel, and rear wheel inbalance through the seat !

I have been trying to locate an on-car balancer, so far without success. Does anyone have one in their area ?

Has anyone rigged up an on-car balancer ?

Sean

[Foxie]

I often found it difficult to get good balance with steel wheels, even after checking all the usual suspects. I changed to Two Gates Minilites quite a few years ago, and found it just as difficult.

The problem may be partly due to the fact that the wheel is located on the hub by the drive pegs, and not principally by the centre opening which is how it's located on the balancing machine. The balance machine can eliminate "couple" unbalance, but it may be off-centre. So on-car balancing would then eliminate this factor.

I have watched an operator get a zero read-out on the balance machine. When he removed it, I asked him to check again. There was now 60 grams unbalance on the "electronically computer balanced" wheel. So now I always request the balance to be double checked.

Rotating the wheel position relative to the drive pegs sometimes makes a difference. Mark the hub and wheel as a guide.

Whatever about the prop-shaft, front wheel inbalance is invariably felt at the steering wheel, and rear wheel inbalance through the seat !

I have been trying to locate an on-car balancer, so far without success. Does anyone have one in their area ?

Has anyone rigged up an on-car balancer ?

Sean

[Foxie]

Oops !

[Foxie]

Didn't think of this when I was putting my previous reply together, but there is a significant difference between the original steel wheels and the Two Gates Minilite alloys.

The original wheels locate on the pegs by 5 drilled holes, and also by an integral preformed conical centre opening, which the conical faced spinner screws into.

However, on the alloys, whilst there are peg location holes, the centre opening does not exactly locate on the hub. Instead, there is a separate fully floating steel ring with a conical depression which mates with the spinner. So, for the purpose of locating the wheel on the car, the central opening has little or no bearing; however, this opening is what will locate the wheel on the balancing machine. They may not be concentric.

Sean

[Robbie693]

Hi Sean,

Does this mean we should get the wheels balanced with the steel ring on?

When I've had my wheels balanced they always remove it.

Cheers

Robbie

[david.g.chapman]

Thanks everyone for your input.

My understanding is that the steel wheels should locate on the centre nut, with the five holes only being there to stop rotation. All being well the holes should then not interfere with this location.

I had an conical adaptor made up to mimic the wheel nut and also fit wheel balance machines. Wheels balanced with this set up were better but still not perfect. Final tweaking was done on the road by trial and error, to get to my current state.

So it looks as if alloys may work...or may not. I will keep experimenting

Dave Chapman.

[Foxie]

Hi Sean,

Does this mean we should get the wheels balanced with the steel ring on?

When I've had my wheels balanced they always remove it.

Cheers

Robbie

Hi Robbie,

In short, yes !

The steel trim ring is part of the assembly and any unbalance in it will contribute to the total unbalance. and it will also depend on how it is mounted in relation to the wheel, i.e. is it always fixed to a certain location or can it be mounted at a random rotation.

However the amount of unbalance in a trim ring, a geometrically circular element manufactured from uniformly thick sheet metal is likely to be small.

Anyway, a simple practical test is to drive with the rings off and on, I doubt if you will notice any difference.

In balancing any rotating assembly, ideally each component should be maufactured to be in balance, and then checked and corrected. Then the complete assembly needs to be checked and corrected, as there may be small intolerances in the fit of the components. In a car wheel, the assembly consists of the hub, the brake disc, the wheel bolts/nuts (eg a single heavier locking bolt would contribute some unbalance)
the wheel, the valve, any trim, and finally the tyre. The tyre is a casting, albeit of rubber, so has the greatest potential to be out-of-balance. Also it may wear unevenly. The effect of any unbalance is proportional to the square of its radius, so any unbalance in the tyre will have a much greater effect than unbalance closer to the hub.

So it may be understood that just balncing the wheel and tyre off the car will enable most, but not all of any unbalance to be corrected. For the most complete balance, on-car balancing is the icing on the cake.

Sean

[Robbie693]

Thanks Sean,

I will be refurbishing a couple of alloys soon and will advise the tyre man so when I get him to swap the tyres over (If they don't get wrecked in the process that is).

Cheers

Robbie

[tdafforn]

the ring is also of small diameter compared to the wheel and hence will have little effect on balance.
Tim

[worzel]

Hi

For what it's worth- had the same problem for yearswith the original steel wheels. Switched to miniltes and all of the vibration/harshness iof not disappeared certainly was vastly reduced.

Regards

John