Tyres for elan

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Brian,

I had the "Two Gates" 14" x 6" wheels sent to germany by Spyder & a set of 185-60 x 14" Yokohamas sent from Demon Tweeks.
The car looked something else when sat on them.
However after setting up the suspension it was found that no amount of wheelarch relief (at the rear) would provide sufficient clearance, hence the immediate change to 175's.
I admit, unashamedly, that my Elan only goes on the road in fine weather, subsequently I am only interested in how everything works in the dry & it's great.
When I do get caught out in the rain I know it's time to take it very, very easy on the loud pedal.
Elans were never very good in the wet were they?
The longer wheelbase of the Mk14 Elite made that car much more enjoyable(?) in the wet

Cheers
John

Bloomin' 'eck; just noticed, next posting will be N? 700

[bcmc33]

John,

WOW, Two Gates ----------- brave man.

My toy only goes out on dry days, hence it saw the road for only five weekends last year. I do hope Donnington is dry this year.

I?ve recently bought 5.5x14 Minilites and really believe that 185 tyres would fit on the rear with a little fettling. A friend has 6x14 Two Gates on his Sprint and recently changed from 185 to 175 tyres and says he cannot not tell the difference. That is what convinced me to play safe and go with 175?s.

I have an ambition to be brave enough to buy an Elite and fit a tuned Twink and T9. Crazy, or what?

[collins_dan]

What size and brand of 175 x 14s are you folks using?

Dan

[collins_dan]

Response from Minilite

Dan,
Good to hear from you; many thanks for getting back in touch!
At the moment, Minilite has the tooling to make the peg-drive design in the 13" and 14" MagStyle design.
You are the Lotus experts, but to the best of my knowledge, the production Elan has room only for a 5" rim (maybe at a squeeze, if all the tolerances stack correctly, 5 1/2", but this may still need some "attention" to the rear suspension to make room).
The Spyder chassis conversion does allow room for a 14 x 6" wheel, and we have supplied those too.
I will ask about the availability of the peg drive in a 15" wheel, but I'm not at all sure about the aesthetics of a 15" wheel on a Lotus...and the added weight would not help the suspension response, either.
Here is a chart of costs for comparison, in traditional silver colour, all FOB Akron Ohio, to remove the variable of domestic freight:

MagStyle cost/wheel transAtlantic, est FOB Akron OH/wheel
13 x 5 $178 $40 $218
13 x 5 1/2 $188 $42 $230
14 x 5 1/2 $219 $44 $263
14 x 6 $231 $46 $277

The options remain of the polished 'highlight ' rim, and a colour, the choices mainly being black (gloss or satin), white, anthracite (a mid-grey metallic), and gold; either the colours or the polished rim adds $15/wheel, so $30 if both are selected.

I hope that this helps, and I'll get back to you with info about the 15" MagStyle Minilite.

John Targett
TargettMotorSport, Ltd.
for Minilite Wheels,
550, Crystal Lake Road,
Akron, Ohio 44333 USA
cell 00 1 330 283 3668
fax 00 1 330 666 6269
www.minilitewheels.us

Kind regards John

[msd1107]

RE: Wide tires on an Elan.

This is an interconnected subject. The Elan was introduced with 5.2-13 and 145-13 tires. It was upgraded to 155-13 tires, and the +2 had 165-13 tires.

The "wider" tires mentioned are generally 175/70-13, 175/60-13, 185/70-13 or 185/60-13. None of these are huge increases, unless they won't fit.

My experience is as follows. I used the 155-13 and 4 1/2" wheels with recommended tire pressures originally. These were replaced with 165-13 tires, 5 1/2" wheels and used with 28/33 psi tire pressures. This resulted in higher cornering limits and more precise steering. Later years, with the disappearance of 165-13 tires saw the them replaced with 185/70-13 and then 185/60-13.

I drive with my left arm resting on the door and gripping the steering wheel between my thumb and two fingers. Just a slight upward or downward pressure is sufficient to steer the car, it literally follows my thoughts.

There are three factors at work here. The wider wheels serve to stiffen the tread and sidewall which makes the steering more responsive and the cornering limits higher. The higher inflation pressures have the same effect. However, the higher inflation pressures need to be used in conjunction with the wider wheels because the two are related in how the tread contacts the pavement. The wider tires, according to tests, result in higher cornering speeds. Even though the size of the contact patch remains the same, other factors are at play here, and there are a variety of more or less believable theories as to what causes this.

I always called my Elan a "puddle jumper" since it would get through water that drowned other cars. One of my more enjoyable drives was in a steady downpour up CA 1 between San Luis Obpisbo and Carmel which is all undulating pavement and continuous corners. Early morning, no traffic, and we splashed our way without a care.

Reading between the lines about wet weather traction, it seems an important factor is tread depth. So new tires will have less problems, tires in the last half of their life can scare you. In this respect, your summer high performance tire exhibits greatest cornering when buffed to a 4 to 6 mm tread depth. However, you need 10 mm or more for wet weather driving. The greater tread depth serves to channel more water away.

The comment about the Elan suspension geometry not being designed around wider tires is certainly correct. Over the years, improvements in tires have lead to an increase of at least .2g cornering ability, which upsets the geometry. For the road, compensate for this by using a larger front arb and installing a rear arb. While a larger arb stiffens the suspension to some degree, it is preferable to installing higher rate springs. Racers have their own solutions.

All this talk about wider tires ignores the requirements of S1-S3 owners who have trouble even with 155-13 or 165-13 tires. For these cars, going to +2 wheels (5 1/2") (you can use up to a 6" rim with 155-13 tires) is probably the best bet. Whether you decide to empty the bank on XAS tires or use other less expensive tires is your decision. This is definitely the easiest path to improved cornering. Since the XAS is used in several classes, it probably will remain in production.

Talk about using 14" or 15" wheels brings up the problem of locating peg drive wheels for most of us. The latest Minilite web site appears to offer these sizes with peg drive. As you go up in wheel size, you need to be a hawk about wheel weight. Superlite offers their wheels in 4 weight ranges plus a mag 26R lookalite, with the usual lighter weight coming at higher prices. Peg drive wheels can be heavier than bolt ons, and be careful to to get Minilite 14" wheels at the same weight or less as the standard steel wheels (12.5 lb). For awhile, the 14" wheels were rather porky, although they may have improved. Be sure to check, you don't want a 14-16 lb 14" wheel, or a 18-20 lb 15" wheel.

Brian, several people have put a TC in their Elite. Mike Ostrov has two and is working on a third. Mike also did a T9 conversion for the Elite, with a BGH gearset and relocated shift lever. The Elite only required the shift lever positioned forward 5" which was handled by shortening the shift rod and repositioning the shift lever. On the other hand, the Elan shift lever wants to come down where 5th gear shift fork lives, a bit of a problem. Driving 2 Elites back to back, one with the ZF and the other with the T9 showed just what a good conversion this was. There was a production run made, all sold and there are some people who wish they had ordered. So none of these are probably available.

guerrila garage, generally speaking, 185 tires are a tight enough fit, trying for 195s is pushing it. And 5 1/2" rims are at the lowest end of recommended wheels.

David
1968 36/7988

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

John,

WOW, Two Gates ----------- brave man.

My toy only goes out on dry days, hence it saw the road for only five weekends last year. I do hope Donnington is dry this year.

I?ve recently bought 5.5x14 Minilites and really believe that 185 tyres would fit on the rear with a little fettling. A friend has 6x14 Two Gates on his Sprint and recently changed from 185 to 175 tyres and says he cannot not tell the difference. That is what convinced me to play safe and go with 175?s.

I have an ambition to be brave enough to buy an Elite and fit a tuned Twink and T9. Crazy, or what?

Yes there have been rumours about the strength of Two Gates wheels on this Forum before.
I have doubts about as to how well founded these are
At the time I bought them they was no other choice & the original steel wheels were worth their weight in gold.
Some years ago at the Silverstone festival I spied an S4 with the same wheels & 185's on it.
It would appear that the available clearance varies from car to car.

Ref. Your ambition snap! My Dad had a bike, maybe we're brothers
It'd be nice to have a chat up at Donington.
I'm already psyching myself up for the long haul.

Cheers
John

[CBUEB1771]

Brian, several people have put a TC in their Elite. Mike Ostrov has two and is working on a third. Mike also did a T9 conversion for the Elite, with a BGH gearset and relocated shift lever. The Elite only required the shift lever positioned forward 5" which was handled by shortening the shift rod and repositioning the shift lever. On the other hand, the Elan shift lever wants to come down where 5th gear shift fork lives, a bit of a problem. Driving 2 Elites back to back, one with the ZF and the other with the T9 showed just what a good conversion this was. There was a production run made, all sold and there are some people who wish they had ordered. So none of these are probably available.

Forgive me for straying off-topic here. There is only one Twin Cam engined Elite with any pedigree. That is the one built by David Lazenby in 1967, a few years after Elite production wound down. He took one of the last body shells, CBU 2001, and installed a Twin Cam for his own use. Being done by a Lotus employee and using some factory resources this car has some pedigree. This Elite is now in Australia. Mike Ostrov doubtless contributed to the T9 project but Ian Hamer was the real driving force. Personally I would keep an Elite as original as possible.

[Elanintheforest]

You guys can't keep on topic for one minute...which is excellent as I was getting bored with tyres!

Just re-read this item about the twincam Elite. Apparently, there were 40 bodyshells sitting at the factory at the time, and Chapman gave his approval to have them built into twincam Elites, at a cost of about ?1500 each. I wonder if any were made?

I'll be keeping the old Coventry Climax as well...you can carry it, and what a noise....

Mark

[CBUEB1771]

I wonder if any were made?

Mark,
As with all things Lotus there are more tales than facts about the Lazenby Elite. My understanding is that only the Lazenby Elite was built with a Twin Cam and that the boss nixed any notion of further units out of concern for interfering with sales of Elans.

[guerrilla garage]

David et. all, Agreed, the chances of cramming a 5.5 x15 wheel with a 195 section tire into an early Elan wheelwell are slim indeed. The real problem as I see it is that 14" performance tires are drying up and disappearing, there are few if any left. To avoid the weight penalty in going to a 15 inch wheel one would probably have to go for magnesium. I was just hoping somebody out there had come up with a solution to the tire dilemma I hadn't thought of yet. -Steve

[msd1107]

Russ,

My aplogies for not mentioning Ian. I thought I was off topic, so used as few words as possible.

For those who have driven this conversion, they can heartily thank Ian for his contributions. This project took a couple of years, several west coast - England flights with gearbox bits in personal luggage and the co-operation of Brian Hill. The gearboxes were finally assembled, shipped back to the states, and delivered to their lucky purchasers.

We can engage in semantics here, but I would argue that a TC Elite has the same "pedigree" as a Zetec +2 or a BDA Elan. Certainly, Lazenby was a Lotus employee, but many other employees had their own back door projects, some more documented than others.

Steve,

This is a difficult area. I suspect many owners would be happy with +2 wheels (or Minilite 13X5.5) and XAS tires. Fitment problems are minimized going this route. The cost of replacement XAS tires gradually builds up, though.

As you point out, 14" wheels may prove to be a dead end.

For 15" wheels, Minilite is not clear on whether peg drive is available. But the distributor in the post above is quite clear that we probably would not be happy with the result. I forget the exact weight they quoted me in the past, but it was heavy.

And the US distributer was not clear on the availability of magnesium wheels, even at astronomical prices.

Superlite only makes bolt-on wheels, so that leaves out most of us. The lightest aluminum 15X6 wheel is under 6kg, close in weight to the +2 steel wheel. The quoted price is 888 GBP for a set of 4. Magnesium wheels (in a 26R style) are even lighter, but priced at 1,500(!) gbp.

David
1968 36/7988

[Elanintheforest]

Russ,

.....We can engage in semantics here, but I would argue that a TC Elite has the same "pedigree" as a Zetec +2 or a BDA Elan. Certainly, Lazenby was a Lotus employee, but many other employees had their own back door projects, some more documented than others

Given that the above article was written in 1968 and was written from interviews with the guys involved, I feel that the twincam Elite does have a bit more credibility / pedigree than a back door special. If there really were 40 CBUs laying about, I can well imagine Chapman giving the nod to getting rid of them at a profit as well!

When my Plus 2 received its BDA in 1971, the factory had been playing with at least 1 Elan with a BDA at the same time, as the twincam was coming to the end of its life. It seems that politics between Ford and Lotus together with unit cost of the BDA prevented the Elan getting the new engine, and the 'Big Valve' was born instead to keep the Elans / Europa going until the new Lotus engine could be developed.

I don't regard my Plus 2 in any way as being a pedigree machine. It wasn't built in the factory, but the engine was supplied direct from Ford. When it was tested in a magazine in 1972 and they said that it had the engine that Lotus should have been using for the past 2 years, there was quite a lot of upset at Lotus! So I do regard it as a 'what may have been' car, and that cannot be compared to a Zetec engine Elan which is completely out of period. But I don't think that either can be compared in any way to the twincam Elite which, if it came on the market today, would I'm sure command a very high price given it's provenance.

So there just may be degrees of pedigree, and out and out mongrels. I have a bit of a soft spot for mongrels though!

Mark

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Well said that man!
I would go further & admit that I love mongrels. If I were to have a dog it would be one, out of choice; they do everything better.
Time to take cover now I think
I remember that magazine like it was yesterday; for me the birth of a dream

Cheers
John

[paddy]

(At the risk of reopening an argument that had died down ... )

I'm about to take delivery of shiny new Minilites (5.5 x 13).

I currently have the same size wheels with Dunlop SP 165/70 x 13 which are about 2 years old and have plenty of tread. It is alarmingly easy to lose it in the wet.

I don't do that many miles and drive occasionally in the wet - not because I set out to get wet, but if here you confine yourself only to times when the road is bone dry you'd never go out at all. When I do drive in the wet, it is still mainly for enjoyment so I don't want to have to drive it like a pram.

I was thinking that if I replace the tyres I have I would go for 175/70. I have room to do this. I don't want to go to a lower profile; the look is out of keeping with the car IMO, and (having a 3.9 diff) I would be making the gearing situation worse.

I don't mind spending money on a decent tyre, but equally I don't want to spend ?200 per corner for road use when the difference is marginal.

So, two questions:
- do I keep the tyres I have for now, and fit new ones when they need replacement?
- if I get new ones, what's the recommendation?

I would replace what I have if I could expect a reasonably significant improvement, otherwise I'll wait.

As for the specific tyre, on this thread we've talked about:

Michelin XAS FF - good grip, expensive, sticky (grit problem) - I've not found them in 175/70 - Bruce says they're too big to fit in the spare wheel well (what size was that?)
Uniroyal R680 - cheap, recommended by Paul Matty - 175/70 available
Avon CR6ZZ - no comments - I've not found them in 175/70
Yokohama (A032R?) - Rohan's choice - I've not found them in 175/70
Vredestein Sprint - a couple of people say they're very happy with them - I've not found them in 175/70
Toyo RA/R888 - no particular feedback on them

Unless I'm looking in the wrong places I don't seem to really have many options (other than "family motoring" tyres) in that size.

Any comments? Suggestions for local suppliers?

Paddy

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Sorry Paddy,

not really an answer to your varied questions but you have raised an interesting point about the space req'd for the spare wheel.
Before I rant on about that; your mention of wet driving:-
IMO any increase in tyre width regardless of tyre type will most likely have a negative influence, due to the light weight of the Elan, also wider tyres have to move more water to keep the footprint free of it.
Personally speaking, I'm not a happy bunny driving my Elan in the wet (175/60's). Errm, I've mentioned that before haven't I.

For anyone considering fitting 14" x 6J wheels & 175 or 185/60 tyres:- Keep a steel wheel as a spare.
Should be OK with MOT because a lot of modern cars use a tiny "get you home tyre"
If you choose, as I did, to have 5 identical wheels/tyres you will need to cut a segment out of the fuel tank & raise the boot board that sits on the tank to match the height of the board that sits on the spare wheel.

Cheers
John