How to stop steering pivot point play?

[seaandmoor]

Hi,
I've been to the dreaded MoT station to-day and just for a change it has failed
The trouble I find is that you take it to one station and it fails on one thing and you take it to another and it fails on something different - no consistency of the standard of inspection.
Anyway this time it is "nearside steering pivot point has excessive play"
Can anyone tell me exactly what/where that might be please? (The tester had left when I collected it so couldn't ask)
I don't feel any play in the steering when driving the car. The trunnions are well oiled. Is there any way of reducing this 'play'? If it is trunnions are they available anymore for +2's and if so where? What cost?
Thanks very much.

[rgh0]

I presume he is talking about the tie rod end ball joint, the ball boint where the tie tord connects to the steering rack or the bearing the steering rack slides in at that end

cheers
Rohan

[paddy]

My reaction was that he was referring to the trunnion but it could also be the track rod end or the top ball joint I suppose. I think it's fine to call up the MOT place and ask to talk to the tester so he can tell you exactly what he meant.

If you can't detect the play yourself, then you should not be failed on it. When the wheel is off the floor, they will typically try to rock the wheel by hand, or get a crow bar between the tyre and floor to see if they can make it move. It's easy to mistake the play in the bearing as play in either the trunnion or the track rod end.

To check the trunnion yourself, I would take the spring/damper off and then check it.

If the trunnion is at fault, then you hope that it's the trunnion that's worn. Call up one of the reputable Elan or Triumph suppliers to get one because there are lots of crap ones on Ebay.

If it's the upright that's worn, then you're into finding another upright.

Finally, there are also some more sympathetic testers around. Where in the UK are you?

Paddy

[seaandmoor]

Hi Rohan and Paddy. Thanks for quick replies. It sounds to me as if you are on the right lines... sounds like expensive lines
Reading the testers wording I don't think it is the joint on the track rod end for two reasons:-
1. I think he would have said track rod end/ball joint in the MoT.
2. Thinking about it since yesterday, these were checked when I did have play in the steering recently and traced it to and replaced the universal coupling at the bottom of the steering column. Top and bottom wishbone bushes appeared ok as well.

Until I get a chance to have another look (and experience has taught me it's always the worst case scenario!) by deduction I suspect it is wear in the trunnion despite frequent greasing from nipple above it or the vertical link; probably both wouldn't you say? (are there any replaceable bushes in there?)
I'm down in Devon unfortunately. Avoiding Ebay then where is the best place to get a trunnion and upright please as I need to get it back on the road again as soon as I can.

I've still a lot to learn by comparison most people on here so thanks very much for any assistance on this.

[paddy]

There are no bearings or bushes, it is just metal on metal. However, the trunnion is softer brass so, unless grit has got into the joint, it should be the trunnion that wears and not the upright, but you'll only know when you have a look.

I don't know how confident you are at judging the condition of the threaded part of the upright - it is obviously a critical part so I suppose you should get advice if you are unsure. I think I would try a new trunnion to begin with unless you see something that concerns you when you get it apart.

SJ Sportscars is in Crediton in Devon and he lists trunnions on his website - maybe closest to you. Don't forget that it's a common Triumph part so there are probably others not too far away. They are handed so get the correct one

Paddy

[andyelan]

Hi ??????

MOT testers are generally familiar with the Lotus steering set-up so don't usually make mistakes, although it can often be a judgement call as to whether or not any play deserves an MOT failure. If you want to check for youself however, remember you must take the spring load off the lower wishbone by putting a jack under it or the spring will be trying to "stretch" the upright and so hide any play present.

Assuming it is the steering swivels which is the problem, parts arn't too expensive, especially when compaired to parts for modern cars. Trunions (be aware they are handed Left and Right) are about ?25 each and to go with these you will need a bush kit for about ?6-?7. There are some cheaper trunions available, these are still about ?25 but include the bushes in the price, I don't know anything about the quality of these as I bought the expensive ones. Top ball joints and track rod ends are usually about ?8-?9 each. I would worry too much about ordreing parts mail order, I do it all the time. If you phone Sue Miller or Paul Matty with a c-card number they'll usually get the parts to you the next day and for somthing like this would charge about ?6-?7. Other people to consider would be Triumph specialests Rimmer Bros or Brown & Gammon.

Regards
Andy

[freddy22112211]

Unless I'm missing something here (it's happened before!) - couldn't it just be the cheap plastic bushes at the bottom (had this many times until I replaced them with teflon (homemade)).
I also had a tester once say that there was play lengthwise - had to put him right by informing him that the old type of bearings were supposed to have a small amount of play.
Gordon

[seaandmoor]

I wish I could buy you all a pint!
I'm always worried about taking something apart - losing a small but critical piece (like a spring loaded retaining ball bearing when I did a mini gearbox many years ago) and then having to trailer it off somewhere and (with a red face) ask someone else to fix my mistake. I used to be quite handy but only been getting back into it again lately.
It's a little bit of the fear of the unknown and like many things once you've done it once it easy to do it the next time. Next weekend, full of bravado, confidence and the knowledge you have given me I should at least be able to:
1. properly check the problem
2. disassemble it
3. order parts (which seem reasonably priced)

On reassembly am I likely to have upset the geometry?
Also, everyone has tactfully avoided the question... but what if it IS the upright? Are these no longer available and if that's the case what have Lotus owners done for replacement uprights? Thank you for all your help on this one.
Best regards

[paddy]

but what if it IS the upright?

You would need a replacement - I've not heard any anyone reconditioning one.

I've never tried to buy a new one - they might be available so I'd suggest calling the Elan and Triumph specialists as already mentioned. You need the upright from a Vitesse or GT6.

They do come up fairly regularly on Ebay, but of course the condition is a bit of a lottery.

I found this site the other day - I've not bought anything from him, so I can't recommend - but it looks genuine and might be worth a try:

http://www.mickdolphin.co.uk/

Paddy

[bcmc33]

but what if it IS the upright? Are these no longer available and if that's the case what have Lotus owners done for replacement uprights?

Just the excuse you need to upgrade to the Caterham uprights from Canley Classics.
http://www.canleyclassics.com/?xhtml=xh ... roduct.xsl

There have been a number of threads on this subject:
elan-f15/canley-uprights-t16251.html

From a previous thread on the subject I recorded the original trunnion manufacturer as:
T D FITCHETT
REDLAND INDUSTRIAL ESTATE,
STATION HILL, ST. GEORGES
TF2 9JX TELFORD , SHROPSHIRE

Phone: 01952 620434

[seaandmoor]

Hmm now then - this is getting quite interesting.
Plenty of thoughts, ideas and opinions on this forum. It's also VERY helpful and gives me places to start making enquiries.

It's useful to know that Vitesse and GT6 uprights are the same as those on +2's.
Mine isn't a Spyder car though so it would seem that rules out any of their equipment as I'm fairly committed to keeping the spoked Dunlop knock-off alloys.
I hadn't thought of TTR but will enquire though as I got some solid drive couplings from there. Also MickDolphin as I pass Measham from time to time.

It seems the Caterham/Canley versions should've been the answer to my prayers but take the point about the ball joint not being protected from grit. I'll still check though incase they have overcome that criticism.
I should soon be well placed to have a plan B if it's looking bad when I get it all apart.
Thanks again.

[robertverhey]

surely all conjecture until you get your MOT man to point at the offending part?

[collins_dan]

"replaced the universal coupling at the bottom of the steering column"

It could be really simple. I replaced my universal coupling and noticed it had more play than I liked, so I tightened the bolts a bit more, done. Check the bolts to make sure they are good and tight. Worth a try if this is the part the MOT chap identifies as having some play.

Dan

[Gray]

Hi

If you come to next week's Club Lotus Sw meeting in S Devon we can discuss options. I'm on my tenth Elan/+2/Europa and rebuilt most of them.

If you don't have meeting details (not normal location) go on the web site or send me a Pm

Regards Gray

[Mark B]

If you do end up needing a new upright, I believe spyder, ttr and paul matty all sell replacements to original specs....

hth
Mark.