Tearing hair out section - window cables!

[69S4]

I've been using the Elan as my daily runabout for the last week or so while my normal car has had some work done on it. No real problems with it until this evening when I was closing the near side (UK) window. As soon as it got to the top there was the sound of the cable unwinding and the glass dropped halfway down. I'll have to take it to bits - again.

It's the "again" bit I'm posting about. That window seems to give nothing but trouble. The cable has come undone countless times (at least it feels like its countless) and despite replacing just about everything I can - cable, nylon runners, pivots etc, it still does it. Every six months or so it seems to go wrong. I've rebuilt the drivers side and that's been ok for years which would reduce the possibility that it's my ineptitude.

Anyone got any ideas, tips etc for trying to make sure I can get it right this time?

[fasterbyelan]

Hi,

Have you replaced the copper washers ? They will harden with age and if reused may not grip the cable in the same way as they originally did. If they are in good condition heating them to a cherry red colour will restore their anneal (if I remember correctly - metalwork lessons were over 30 years ago!).

I can't imagine new ones are expensive though just the frustration of trying to get a couple locally.

Where abouts in Oxon are you, I'm just up the road near Silverstone.

[FOX5D]

Hi Stuart

What a coincidence? I have this morning successfully (at last) sorted one of my S4 windows. On about 3 occasions I thought I'd done a lovely job but the window dropped down with one end of the cable coming out of the fixing bolt. Before that my first problem was that channel rubbers were too tight fitting on the 4mm glass and the motor was not happy at all. Paul Matty's parts guru (Roy) suggested that I use some early +2 rubbers which he supplied at very low cost. That took virtually all the unnecessary resistance out of the window's movement-good old Roy. Then I kept making the same mistake-I wasn't tightening the bolt up enough as I was worried about braking the glass-even though I used new fibre washers every time (probably also should have used new copper washers too).

So this morning I refitted the cable (I temporarily left the ends a bit long previously cus I was getting through a cable at every attempt), and was a bit braver with the spanner, and it works fine now. The glass goes up and down smoothly by hand before fitting the motor.

I got so fed up with constantly having to go back and do it again, I also found myself making different mistakes each time. I'm on 01326 374812 if you need any help cus I am now an expert!

Jim

[billwill]

The best solution is to get Alex Black to make you some of his very special window-cable fasteners.

[reb53]

The trick I used to stop all my cable problems 30 years ago has been posted here before.

Terminating the cable ends under the window clamp causes big problems if they come undone as there's never enough cable left to grab and re-tension.
Also, I was always worried that the glass would shatter if the clamp was over tightened.

So my cables now go straight through the clamps and terminate in the middle of the longest run. They join with a couple of small loops clamped with the copper sleeves that are sold for the purpose. The joins need to be as small and neat as possible to ensure they don't snag on the adjacent diagonal wire. Test it all out before putting the frame back in the door.I got all I needed for the job from a ship chandlers.

The worse that can happen now is the window can get crooked/lop sided if the clamps slip.
That only happened the once before I closed my eyes, gritted my teeth, and tightened the clamps a little more.

Everything's been fine since, (touch wood..... )

Cheers
Ralph.

[69S4]

Thanks for all the replies! I haven't stripped the door down yet so I'm not sure exactly what's gone wrong but in the past it's not been the cable pulling through that's caused the problem. Usually I've found a birds nest of cable in there but still firmly attached at both ends. It's as though something is causing it to jump off the nylon wheels. I've replaced just about all of them and drilled out and replaced a couple of the spindles they run on.

I have wondered whether the frame is twisted but it doesn't appear to be by eye. It fits ok into the door and the window runs up and down smoothly enough. Probably best if I strip it down and see what's actually happened first.

The best solution is to get Alex Black to make you some of his very special window-cable fasteners.

A very good idea. Whenever I've got to the point of tightening the bolt in the past I'm sure my stress levels exceed anything felt by the glass.
I do remember reading Ralf's post about fastening the cable ends in the longest run rather than at the glass but previously it's not been the problem so I've stuck with the original method on the KISS principle - and once you've tightened the bolt without anything breaking you've survived (till the next time).

Hi,
Where abouts in Oxon are you, I'm just up the road near Silverstone.

I'm in Thame although I know Silverstone well as I used to work at the circuit for 15 yrs

[oldelanman]

Hi Stuart,
Do you have the steel washer on the cable clamp bolts between the plastic (or fibre) and the copper ones ? If not then the cable may be too close to the glass and pulling off the top pulleys as the window reaches the top of it's travel. If you have enough thread on the clamp bolt you could perhaps try introducing an additional washer at that point to line the cable up better with the pulley.

After many failed attempts to tension the cable by pulling on the ends while tightening the clamp - difficult if you are working on your own - I found a simple way to do it which you might want to try when you put yours together. Thread up the cable loosely and just nip up the clamp to hold it. Now loosen the bracket which holds the drive spool to the frame so that you can disengage the spool from the hole in the frame and move it up approx 1/2" to introduce slack in the cable. Use a crocodile clamp or similar to hold it in this position. Now take the slack out of the cable and tighten the clamp - no need to pull on the cable ends. Now release the crocodile clamp and ease the drive spool back into the hole in the frame and this will tension the cable. Worked for me!

Regards,

[richard sprint]

This post is nicely coincidental to my rebuilding both frames, I completed this a couple of days ago and decided to let them rest awhile (especially not cutting of the excess cable) before going back to check all is in order before fitting the frames to doors.

So the many tips are very welcome, heating up the copper washers and the method of gaining extra tension, spacer washers are all great points - many thanks to all...

[69S4]

Hi Stuart,
Do you have the steel washer on the cable clamp bolts between the plastic (or fibre) and the copper ones ? If not then the cable may be too close to the glass and pulling off the top pulleys as the window reaches the top of it's travel. If you have enough thread on the clamp bolt you could perhaps try introducing an additional washer at that point to line the cable up better with the pulley.

Regards,

TBH I can't remember. It all seemed ok when I last did it (and my hair has grown back since then ) but something must be wrong if it keeps unspooling. I was going to strip it down last night but with everything in the garage there isn't enough room to work on the doors and as it was pi**ing down I thought I'd leave it until today.

I have used the technique you mentioned to tension the cable, or a least something close to it. On the other window I even put in an extra nylon wheel along the bottom with the pivot being bolted into a slot so I could fasten the cable relatively loosely and tension it afterwards by running it over the extra wheel which is then moved up / down to fine tune it.

[billwill]

Tensioning the cable is not really difficult.

First put a ring or box spanner on the nut ready to tighten it.
Second clamp a mole wrench on one of the free ends as close to the nut as possible.
Third use pointy nose pliers to twist the other free end around its points to tighten the cable.
Fourth tighten the nut with the spanner.

[fasterbyelan]

Brian Buckland gives a detailed description of assembling the window in his book. This may be useful.

[Elan45]

I just had to do this thankless task about a year and a half ago. Since I could not find some of the parts new and I had rewound the window two previous times to only get a days use, I wanted new parts. I was forced to buy a box of 50 copper washers and ended up making new bolts from flat head machine screws on my lathe. But they held and I had a wonderful summer's use before that @&*^ deer got in the way. Also, the window got new fuzzy channel in the frame so it didn't rattle any more. I sourced it from a US supplier on size and it fit quite well.

Roger

[69S4]

I've just stripped it down (just over 15 mins - a testament to how often I've done it!) and this time it is the cable that pulled out of the clamping bolt. The end is too frayed to risk reusing it so I'll have to source a new one. It'll give me time to go through everyone's posts and
take in what's been said.

[oldelanman]

Is this any good ?.......

http://www.theyachtshop.co.uk/items/rope~twine~chain-and-wire/wire-rope/7x7-stainless-steel-wire-rope/1-5mm-6-7-stainleb-steel-wire-rope-w33201-detail.htm

Regards,

[elansprint71]

Is this any good ?.......

Regards,

Possibly not! Don't forget that dinghy rigging very seldom has to go around little pulleys like we find in our window system (pulleys within masts, etc are much larger). Stainless rope can tend to remain bent if it is "kinked" too much.
Steel cable is also no use (bike brakes, etc) as it is not as flexible as steel rope.

I think that one of the common causes of window problems is the lack of a limit switch on the motor; it just pulls tight until it is prevented from turning by the rope going tight; if there is ANY slack when assembly takes place, there will be a LOT of slack when the motor pulls the "other side" tight. This allows the slack rope to fall off the small guide pulley.