New Elan headers hitting cross member

[tvacc]

Sorry, I posted this into the Plus 2 section by mistake.

At the suggestion of Ray at RD, I am posting this out.
I recently bought a set of headers from Ray. They are the ones that are all welded together with a thick backing plate on the face that bolts to the head.
I have know Ray for 25 years or so I am not saying anything bad here, I just dont get it.

I just put them on, on motor I just rebuilt. The bottom of the down pipe is hitting the channel crossmember. Just enough so the it hits but I dont think it is actually holding the motor "up" but I might be wrong. It appears to me that the one pipe is hitting and the other is not. In additon, the top rear bolt is also hitting the header enough so that I cannot get a wrench or socket on it. It is just finger tight. That is not a big issue as I dont think it will fall out and there are three more, but I am concerned about it wearing a hole in the header as well.

Here are some pictures. I am at a lost at what I am doing wrong. Chassis seems unmolested. Stock. Any ideas? Do I have the motor mounts mounted on the wrong side? it has been a long time since I owned a non Spyder chassis Elan. About 15 years since I really worked on one. I owned my old Sprint for a while back in 2004 just long enough to sell it to someone on this list, but not really worked on one since about 97.

[abstamaria]

TVACC, the headers shouldn't hit the channel, IMO. Headers usually will foul the top flange of the frame itself, requiring a cutout, but should clear the crossmember. I've installed two header sets, one built by Jeff Lowe in the early 1980s and then a newer from from Tony Thompson.

Each header set is obviously unique, so I would venture that the problem is with the headers you now have.

Good luck.

Andy

[Bud English]

I replied to the post on the +2 side, but I believe it's the same for the elan. I think the motor mount spacers go on the intake side. That should cure the motor mount interference. Like Andy posted each header varies a bit and may be causing the cross member problem.

[rgh0]

Spacers go on the exhaust side as shown- otherwise no space for exhaust to clear sub frame (aka chassis).

It looks like the pipes need a little more bend to clear both the mount bolts and the cross member.

cheers
Rohan

[types26/36]

Do I have the motor mounts mounted on the wrong side?

As said the spacers go on the Exh side, the mounts are also fitted correctly and can be identified by the ?semi circle edge? on the standard mounting while the raised mount has a ?straight edge?

[tvacc]

Thanks for the help all, but other than a bad set of headers, no real idea on what is going on. Outside of buying ajother set from a different vendor or having Ray get me another set of these to try the only thing I can think of to try is another set of new motor mounts. These are the originals and maybe they are starting to fail? They seem a little split and seperating on the bottom where the rubber is attached to the metal.
Any other ideas?

[rgh0]

Hi Tony
The mounts look fine and would not affect where the header hits the mount bolt which it should not.

The mount would need to be much much higher to have adequate clearance on cross member and that would just be wrong.

The headers should be to the rear of the cross member so do not hit it as then engine moves on the mount.

The tight clearances mean its hard to get headers that fit as the average small production run pipe bender cant keep the needed tolerances. You can try a new set from Ray or another vendor or just do the work to bend the one you have a little.

cheers
Rohan

[tvacc]

I dont mind trying another set, but these are a real son of a gun to get in and out. You have to support the motor with a hoist, remove both motor mounts, jostle them in from the bottom, etc etc. It was a real pain getting them in. It was not a 20 minute job. Dont know what to do. I will see if another vendor as a different set. Perhaps one like on my Spyder Elan that is not welded all together. One that comes in a few peices.

Any other ideas welcome.

[dlbutler]

I have these headers and what problems I had were easy to fix:
The motor mounts must be in good condition - the old mounts sag lowering the engine. The heavy duty mounts are better, but a bit harder to install (stiff!).
The motor mount flange and spacer on the side facing the header must be trimmed; a socket head bolt helps with clearance. Also, a heat shield helps with motor mount longevity.
Replace the studs with socket head bolts except for the front stud; it's much easier to tighten and the one remaining stud holds the header in place while installing the gaskets and bolts.
The chassis was "trimmed" by the P.O. and seems necessary for any header installation. I bought the car with what looked like Lotus headers which eventually became unrepairable.
Don't assume that something is wrong because it is difficult!

[elanern]

Tony, take a close look at the crossmember - does it look like someone has put a jack under it at some point or maybe scraped a speed bump? The crossmember in my Elan was bent up slightly, and although it did not foul the exhaust header it was definitely bent upward. I straightened it after removing the engine for the water pump replacement.

Let us know how you make out.

[tvacc]

In regards to the last 2 posts:

I will check and see if the cross member has been bent at all. It is not "jump" out at me that it was, but I was not looking for it. Will so so later. I am at work now and cannot leave till my son gets here.

As far as putting in cap bolts, I have done that before on other Elans. I have never been really that comfortable at doing that as I feel that the installation of headers is almost always done under stress to some component. As this being a aluminum head, I was always concerned about the threads in the head. It always seemed to me to be a situation where there is a higher risk of having a problem. but I will give it some thought.

And I understand that difficult does not mean "broken". But in this situation, I feel they should just "fit". Outside of the motor mounts sagging, which I believe I am going to try a new set, I just think this should just "fit".

I would love to get some sort attempt at a resolution to this by the end of the day as I would love to take the car to a LOONY breakfast this coming weekend.

[AChen]

Tony,

I ordered the exact same headers from Ray two months ago. Installed them in July. Yes I think Ray is a great guy.

A check on my Elan shows..
1. Both tubes of headers miss the cross member by 1/2".
2. There is enough clearance between top-rear (1 of 4) engine mount bolt and number 1 cylinder header down tube to get a 1/2" (3/8" drive) standard socket on the bolt. I cannot, however, also attach an extension and ratchet because of interference from the No. 2 cylinder down tube. I can tighten this bolt from below with a standard combination wrench.

I had two issues on installation.
1. The front most exhaust manifold stud hole on the header had to be slightly enlarged to align with the stud.
2. The headers do touch the top of the chassis as others have noted. Haven't done anything yet, but I think I'll have to either bend the headers or cut out a notch in the the chassis and weld in a reinforcement pad.

BTW, I installed them with engine mounted on the chassis, but body off. I was able to do this by getting a friend to pull the engine to the right of the car by hanging off the right side of the chassis and grabbing the head. The rubber in the motor mounts have enough flex to allow the engine to shift enough to put the headers in.

Regards,
Tony C.

[tvacc]

I am stuck at work till about 2pm. Will head back to my house and garage and try and eval my next step. I am assuming it will be to order a new set of mounts from Ray. I do have another mount kicking around my basement. Saw it there a few days ago. I will look at that as well. Dont know if it is new or used. Just saw it on the floor under my "lotus" parts rack.

[Yum-yum]

tvacc,
Is your chassis crossmember removable? This is a common mod with a number of variations shown in other posts. You might consider modifying yours to accept a new channel which bolts within yours. Drill for bolt holes through both the new channel and the current one on each side to maintain the proper spacing, saw out the original within 2-3 inches of the main chassis each side and bolt in the replacement. The new narrower channel might give enough clearance to the header without need to bend the header. Just a thought. This mod kills originality but helps a lot in engine service.

[AChen]

Tony,

My belief is that your headers are a little bit out of spec.

-Tony