Converting a +2S to Spyder chassis with a Zetec

[Spinney]

I take your point Andy and I do recall the particular case you refer to but I think there was a bit more to that story than the bare facts seem to imply. If I remember correctly, whilst the LR had a valid MOT certificate, I believe that was achieved with the car in its unmodified state and the owner had carried out unsafe modifications post testing. So, in theory the car had a valid MOT but in fact hadn't been tested for safety after the chap had changed the suspension.

I would imagine that provided the car is taken for and passes an MOT test post modification and both the DVLA and insurance company are notified it has a different power unit, then I can't see there will be any problem.

The Land Rover case was particularly sad and clearly the owner had carried out an incompetent job on the car that rendered it unsafe on the road. I really don't see the Spyder conversion presenting a problem provided the correct channels are used.

[andyelan]

Hi There

The problem is the law's blind. An "incompetant job" could be considered, in law at least, to be one carried out by an unqualified person. Also, a valid MOT would not be accepted as proof that a car is safe, it simply states that the car complied with a set of laid down requirements at the time the test was carried.

I had discussed these points with my brother who happens to be a barrister, his comment were that if anyone ended up in court with him as prosecution he'd have a fairly easy afternoons piece of work so his advice was, don't end up in court.

I wonder if our friends in the US have any comments on this matter. I've always been under the impression their litigation laws on matters regarding saftey have alway been so much stricter than ours in the UK. Has any one there come across anything like this before

Andy

[Elanintheforest]

Surely Andy you could extend that argument to me fixing the brakes of my car, or even checking the tyre pressures. I'm not a 'certified' engineer or mechanic, and if I put the seal back in the master cylinder a bit clumsily, and it failed and somebody was killed....Or didn't tighten up the spinner properly and the wheel came off....and a thousand and one other things.

There must be some sort of test of reason applied to this sort of area, and gaining an MOT with a modified car, and telling the insurance company (who may want the car inspected I guess) sounds to be pretty reasonable.

We are very lucky in the UK still being able to do this sort of stuff. Try modyfying a standard car, or building a kit car in Germany or Switzerland...and many other countries I'm sure.

There is always a question on the insurance form...is the car modified in any way? It must be there for a reason!

Mark

[Spinney]

The only way round that is to take the car for the new IVA test after any such modifications but then they will re-register it with a 'Q' plate. I understand what you are saying and to be honest I think all common sense has been lost in recent years so quite possibly if somebody wanted to get awkward about it they probably could. Nevertheless, I'll take my chances I think.

[collins_dan]

In the US, each state has different rules. An historic car (25 years old or older) in Maryland does not have to pass any tests to get on the road, so the fact that my wipers have never worked... doesn't prevent me from getting on the road. Dan

[andyelan]

Hi there

The problems only really start if you end up in court. The snag here is that you're in an adversarial situation where the prosecution will do everything they can to demostrate your car wasn't fit for the road and you then have to defend against it.

MOTs prove nothing (unless you don't have one of course) that's already been established

Insurance companies are neutral (or maybe against you, they'ed try to avoid paying out if they can) you've simply told them of mods, they will make no judgement as to whether the car is safe, if they did, they themselves could be liable.

If you've simply done repairs using original parts then that might not be too bad but there's still no guarantee you'd be ok. If you refit a wheel and it comes loose or you've incorrectly fitted brake seals then you could still be in trouble if there's an accident and someone gets injured. You've just got a bit better defence that's all.

I guess the problem is, the more complex the job the more it would be argued that it should have been left to "experts" and a Zetec conversion is a very complex job which significantly alters the performance of the car from what was originally intended. What you need is evedence and by that I mean written evedence that shows you've done all you can to ensure your car is safe.

Actually what you need to do is a "risk assesment" this shows you've considered possible dangers and then tried to mitigate against them. One possibility might be to get a privatly commissioned report from an independent motor engineer. You'd have to pay of course but you would then have somthing to say the car was ok yet you still wouldn't need to re-register it on a Q plate. Actually, has anyone ever approached Spyder and asked if they could provide such a report. The very fact you've gone to this trouble shows you've at least made an attempt to limit risks.

I know all this legal stuff seems like a pain, but I'm a fairly senior engineer working in research & development for a major UK gas turbine manufacturer and I have to deal with s**t like this every day. Problem is, love it or hate it, these days you cant ignore it.

One final point, my brother drives a fully tricked up, all the bells and whistles, BMW. He dosn't see himself becoming poor any time soon

Andy

[dmode]

Andy... You have got a strong point. Here in Denmark it would not be possible to get a danish MOT with the Zetec in an Elan. The power increase is to big, and the looses its identity.

[Spinney]

Maybe it would be sufficient to have a post build check carried out by the kit manufacturer who will, maybe, have product liability insurance to indemnify him and anybody who carries out a conversion using their components. Caterham Cars offer a post build check for all their kit built cars where they carry out an inspection to ensure the car has been built to specification.

I detest all this 'risk assessment' nonsense with a passion and will avoid it like the plague..

[Craig Elliott]

...but surely there is a difference between doing a self-designed fix/bodge that breaks and causes an accident (as may have been the case in the instance referred to earlier) and installing an expert designed and engineered chassis/suspension system specifically produced to be capable of dealing with the additional power of a tuned Zetec (quote "Based on our Twenty year old tried and tested spaceframe. We have designed and produced a chassis to accept the Ford Zetec 2 Litre 16-valve engine and MT75 (5speed) transmission, along with Ford LSD 3.64 ratio. With these components we use our Spyder double wishbone suspension system designed to accept Sierra 10" disc brakes, hubs and bearings. The front twin wishbone suspension utilises Ford upper and lower ball joints, again with Ford brake calipers but with vented discs.

Power outputs in excess of 200 BHP are achievable, while still retaining good reliability. Making this a good everyday vehicle with style")...

In which case any problems would come down to how well the chassis and upgrades were fitted - unless someone decided not to go the whole hog and keep the original brakes/suspension. In the event of a court case it would need to be proven that reasonable care had not been taken - in effect the same as any diy repair/maintenance on any car? In the event it being proven that reasonable care hadn't been taken then the most likely outcome would be a fine/compensation - if a garage had done the work then it would be a claim against their professional indemnity insurance, if you'd done the work it would be against your personal indemnity insurance. In the UK this is often included in car insurance policies so it would be very important to be clear on any upgrades to the insurers and to check what cover for personal indemnity was provided...

C

[andyelan]

Hi again

Although I wasn't aware Caterham Cars offer a post build check for all their kit built cars, I would guess it's done for the very reasons we're talking about here. They are after all a highly professional and competent outfit

Andy

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Hi Everyone

Just to be really boring for a moment, has anyone considered what the legal implications might be in this day and age if a Zetec engined car was involved in a serious accident where someone was badly injured or killed.

As things might appear, here is an old car with a engine twice as powerful as it was designed for and which goes significantly faster than ever intended. I realize that it would be argued that the car has been significantly re-engineered to account for this, however, I?d suggest that in most cases, decimation will still have it as a 60s-70s Lotus Plus 2. A kit car built from scratch of course wouldn?t have this problem because it would have to have an inspection carried out by a DVLA Engineer before it could be registered for road use. Also, there?s the possibility that if a car is built up by the owner, as opposed to say someone like Spyder, he might not be considered ?competent? to have carried out such a re-engineering job. These days no matter how good or capable one actually is ?competence? requires qualification and certificates these days. Finally of course there?s the possibility of how Lotus react in order to avoid any possible chance they might become embroiled in a case which might show them up in a bad light.

It might be worth reflecting that recently there?s a local case in which a modified Land rover crashed into a river killing two children. The car did have an MOT and was road legal, however, the driver has still ended up in prison for driving what was considered an unsafely modified vehicle

Andy

An interesting point Andy.
The insurance people certainly sit up & take notice of Zetec engined Elans & reflect it in their prices.
British law is an a55.
How can they let you modify any road vehicle without any form of legislation & then bang you up in prison when things go wrong?
Over here you can end up standing in front of a magistrate if you've fiited a sporty steering wheel or wider tyres which are not entered into the registration document by the ruling body T?V (MOT in UK).
Those rules would apply to any mechanical "upgrade" that you may consider making on your Elan i.e. +2 front brakes, fuel injection etc.
I think the motto should be "don't rock the boat" feeding fodder to the little men in Whitehall to give them any excuse to make our little lives more tedious really needs to be avoided.
On the other hand an engine change has to be entered into the registration document & the DVLA can pay you a visit to check that engine out.

Not an attack on you Andy, just my take on the Law & a strong desire to retain that little bit of freedom left to us.

Cheers
John

[Spyder fan]

In the US, each state has different rules. An historic car (25 years old or older) in Maryland does not have to pass any tests to get on the road, so the fact that my wipers have never worked... doesn't prevent me from getting on the road. Dan

Dan,
That's amazing, talk about 'Land of the Free'. I can't remember when the first MOT (ministry of Transport) tests became compulsory for road cars (think it was the 50's) but year on year they add another bit to the test and us classic and modified owners have to make sure we don't get failed by non clued up testers who should know that we are exempt from anything that was added to the test after our cars were first built.

Is insurance compulsory, or can you dodge that if you want? Are road deaths higher in your State than similar populated States with more Draconian laws on vehicle testing?

Regards

[Elanintheforest]

John
I didn't really understand your comment about 'the law is an A55', but after some thought, I think I've got it.



And there is further Elan content in this message. Did you know that the door lock mechanism on the S1 and S2 Elan was sourced from the Austin A55 ? Ha...thought not!

Going for a lie down now.

Mark

[terryp]

Mark
Your not suggesting you put a Zetec in an Austin A55?

Terry

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

John
I didn't really understand your comment about 'the law is an A55', but after some thought, I think I've got it.



And there is further Elan content in this message. Did you know that the door lock mechanism on the S1 and S2 Elan was sourced from the Austin A55 ? Ha...thought not!

Going for a lie down now.

Mark

Ya daft Bat!
My laptop screen is now covered with a course spray of tea!
Errm. Do you think you really should give up the day job

Cheers
John
PS It never ceases to amaze me how you & Gary manage to dig up the right picture each time.