Converting a +2S to Spyder chassis with a Zetec

[Spyder fan]

But the plus 2 is not being produced now.. ......It was last produced 35 years ago

If it were possible would you really put a Zetec in a 1960 Lotus Elite because you wanted to drive it on the road everyday.
Similarly would you put one in Ford V8 Pilot to enable trouble free motoring whist driving to work.
I think the answer to the above 2 scenarios is No, then why would anyone want to do the same to a plus 2

My first car was a Ford 100E with a sidevalve engine , I dreamed about being able to put a 1500cc Anglia engine in it , but I kept it as it was and bought a Ginetta G15 to use for work. (Very Practical!)

What I'm trying to say is a Lotus Elan +2 has a Lotus Twincam Engine in it, anything else and it becomes a "Custom Car" just like the Zephyrs and Zodiacs with a V8 and Jaguar IRS. Surely if the car doesn't do the job that you want it to do then you have to look at another car?
I feel better now
Terry

Terry,

Would you buy a new Caterham with a sidevalve engine in it? The Spyder +2 Zetec is an ongoing development in the same vein.

regards

No but I wouldn't mind a Lotus 7 series 1 with a 1172cc sidevalve running full Aquaplane
So presumably the "Spyder +2 Zetec" has now dropped the Lotus pretence

Terry,
I personally make no pretence regarding my +2, it's modified to my taste. Its a bit like Marmite I suppose.

[Spyder fan]

[quote="Elanintheforest"]Mr Spinney, I was being ironic?but failed miserably. Yes it is my engine bay, and the BDA was fitted in 1971. When Motoring News tested the car, they reported that ?this was the engine Lotus should have fitted to the Plus 2 instead of the big valve?, which upset a few folk at Lotus.

I would have no qualms about fitting a Zetec to an Elan?there are plenty to go around! Whether or not it is better than an original is a personal choice, but a lot depends on the capability of the person building it. I?ve seen and driven a couple of stunning conversions, but unfortunately have also experienced some absolute dogs. It?s an expensive business to do properly, and that?s if you have a fair bit of skill?otherwise it?s a very expensive business.

I guess my main gripe is when folks compare a newly born Spyder conversion to an old shed of a Plus 2 that?s fit for the scrappers. Of course it?s in a different league. But compare a well built Spyder to a well restored Plus 2, then you can perhaps make a balanced decision.

E Types are my other passion, and the debate of original vs upgraded is a constant topic. The upgraded Eagle cars are usually bought as toys by blokes who, after a year and 800 miles of posing, find the Bentley far more comfy and much easier to drive. Have a look at the Eagle website and see how many 2, 4, 6 year old cars are for sale with sub-2000 miles on the clock. The price tag of ?150k doesn?t attract many enthusiasts. Even though they stop well, go well and handle a little better, you can?t alter the basic aerodynamics of the car. Lots of people put in 5 speed boxes as a fine upgrade, only to find that the reduction in engine noise at a fast cruising speed means that you can now hear the roar of the wind noise from around the door windows ?same with a Plus 2 I?m afraid.

Both you an Alan have jumped straight into the ?original is trouble? mode. You talk of the E Type with the bonnet up at the side of the road having the points changed. What a load of crap! Mine?s never let me down in thousands of miles / 12 years. Not once.

Alan talks about twincams pouring out oil. Mine don?t?not even the BDA! Standard clutch not upto it? Mine has a standard clutch with 170bhp from the BDA. No problems in 80,000 miles / 38 years. Wind up from the rotoflexes? Have you ever driven a car with rotoflexes, or just repeating the pub talk from others who haven?t tried it?. A learner driver would probably find it strange, but after an hour or so they are completely normal.

I?ve never had problems with the electrics either. Many people do, but that?s because they are trying to use a 40 year old car that hasn?t been restored or maintained properly.

Come on guys, get a bit of perspective. Do the conversion because it?s a fun and challenging thing to do, and enjoy it for what it is. But if you think you?ll create something that can?t be achieved with a standard well restored car, then I think you may be disappointed. If you want a fast, hairy Brit sports car, a TVR Griffith 500 can be bought for the price of a good Zetec conversion. That will out-perform an Elan, no matter how upgraded, in every dimension.

And for the price of a Spyder built conversion, you could have a beautifully restored Plus 2 AND a Griff.[/quote]

I did say that I owned my Elan in standard form for 3 years, I covered 20,000 + miles so perhaps I may have some experience of rotoflexes, I burnt out 2 clutches and tried every method known to man and God (including his best mate Miles Wilkins) to try and seal up my many and various leaks. I am probably heavy on transmissions, so those rubber doughnuts didn't suit me.
As for a Griffith 500, no thanks (are you dreaming?), and I cant remember mentioning reliability, my car has always been on the button there were just a few 'quaint' items that annoyed me so I changed them.

BTW I love the BDA pic, and yes I got the intended irony. Thanks to Spinney for starting this thread, its always good to see who comes out of the woodwork for a bit of a blather and hopefully friendly banter on this topic.

[Spyder fan]

Sorry all: the quotes didn't seem to work on my last post, this is a follow up to Elanintheforest

I did say that I owned my Elan in standard form for 3 years, I covered 20,000 + miles so perhaps I may have some experience of rotoflexes, I burnt out 2 clutches and tried every method known to man and God (including his best mate Miles Wilkins) to try and seal up my many and various leaks. I am probably heavy on transmissions, so those rubber doughnuts didn't suit me.
As for a Griffith 500, no thanks (are you dreaming?), and I cant remember mentioning reliability, my car has always been on the button there were just a few 'quaint' items that annoyed me so I changed them.

BTW I love the BDA pic, and yes I got the intended irony. Thanks to Spinney for starting this thread, its always good to see who comes out of the woodwork for a bit of a blather and hopefully friendly banter on this topic.

_________________
Alan Thomas

[Elanintheforest]

It's friendly banter Alan, don't worry about that! But I'm not kidding about the Griff...they are quite nippy. A 5 litre V8 with 350bhp in a car that weighs about the same as a Plus 2 assures reasonable performance. The only downside I found was, as with a big bike, you have to be wide awake when driving them. I used mine for commuting, thrashing about, in rain sun and and snow (that was a little hairy) and a moment's inattention would reward you with the back end overtaking the front, very quickly. But totally reliable over the 50k miles or so that I had it. It's one car I wish I'd kept, but I think that another may join the fleet one day.

As for the oil leaks, well I did have one in my S3 in the late 80s, but only after Miles had rebuilt it! It had never leaked for the previous 10 years, but in his defense, it was the rear crank oil seal that leaked, and that was probably due to a lack of use for a couple of years...simply fixed. I think that some twincams suffer from previous botch jobs, and worn / bent front covers. But those are now being made again....so no excuses!

[Spinney]

I guess I always knew this subject would polarise opinions but I have to say I also thought there might be some who would be quite ambivalent and not mind too much either way. Anyhow, to sum up, yes I will pursue the Zetec route as I honestly believe that will give me something nearer to the car I eventually wish to end up with. I have lived with older classics and even though they were well maintained, could and often did still prove temperamental at times.

Despite being an older engineer, I have few fond memories of carburettors or mechanical ignition distribution systems. They are, at best, nothing more than a compromise and whilst both fuel injection and 3D ignition can be retro fitted to a twin cam, I would still be left with 50 year old technology in the basic engine. Yes they can be made relatively oil tight but parts are expensive and the 8 valve design really can't compete with a more modern 16v engine. I am not a member of the school of thought that says classic is better and should not be tampered with. As far as I am concerned it is a good starting point that can be improved to my tastes with the use of modern materials and technology.

I have driven Elans, both the DHC and +2's many, many years ago and loved them. At the time (late 60's - early 70's) I couldn't really conceive of these great little cars being any better than they were but times change and technology moves on apace. I see nothing wrong in updating the original concept which was so right then on so many levels.

On the subject of Colin Chapman and what cars he would have built now, that really is academic and had he lived, the likelihood is that he would probably have been on a very long vacation at Her Majesty's pleasure and Lotus Cars would most likely have ceased to exist many years ago. I am inclined to believe what his son told me about how he would have reacted to the Elise but the question of whether or not he would have built such a car is meaningless really as we can never know the answer to that. It can not be denied that the Elise used ground breaking technology at it's launch and that is something for which ACBC was very well known throughout his controversial life.

Anyhow, thank you for all the replies and I am sorry if the idea of molesting such a fine car design offends some but hope others will appreciate what I am going to undertake.

[blackandgold]

Interesting discussions on originality

I bought my car in 1981 at the tender age of 20 mainly because of the BDA that was fitted it
had BD3 cams and big valves and around 190 BHP it was very fast espcially for a young chap
The PO I believe had blown up the original engine as the sump had a repair indicating a dropped rod
Partly due to the way a drove (to many GP starts) I had a lot of problems with broken rotoflex bolts and
this was solved with a home brewed U/J sliding spline setup made from angilia and morris marina parts,
the engine would pull 8000 rpm and top speed was around 140 MPH

At the time I was told by certain Lotus experts that my car was not a lotus any more due to the engine
which I thought was aload of rubbish, and at the time originality was not a big thing for me, however
now older I can see some points of the augument.

When I first heard about the spyder Zetec I was excited as it solved a number of problems that can detract
from the fun of owning one of these cars and enables you use the car on a regular basis with high performance
and less to worry about, However the costs of this conversion can spiral up if you a unable to do alot of work
your self as witnessed by the car in Classic's monthy

Now you can certainly argue that you can achieve the same reliabilty with the standard engine
if you use quality modern parts with EFI and combine this with the same gear box, spyder chassis and suspension hower getting similar power will cost more and likley be less reliable

I would advise having a good think about what you want to use the car for every day or just a weekend blaster and even test drive a few zetecs to get an idea on what they drive like compared to the standard car remember that too much of a race spec on the suspension can make the car more tiring to drive on a regular basis

[Spinney]

Thanks for your comments Mark. Suspension set up would be aimed more at comfort as if I want to do 'fast' with stiff suspension, I have the supercharged Elise for that. I'm not insensitive to the arguments for originality and like you I can see it has merits, but not necessarily for what I want from this particular car.

Apart from bodywork and paintwork, I intend doing all the mechanical build work myself because, if I'm being totally honest, I thoroughly enjoy building cars and so that is my main reason for doing this. It gives me the opportunity to combine two of the things I love - messing about with cars and the Lotus +2S.

I will try and get to drive a Spyder converted car as you suggest, but at the moment I just can't see any downside; for me I hasten to add. I am in the fortunate position of having a few cars from which to choose for my daily drive, so the +2 won't get used every single day but I still hope to get good use from it for a fair few years before I can no longer easily get into it.

[Spyder fan]

Andy Widnall will happily give you a drive of his demonstrator at Spyder in Peterborough and on your way up you could stop off in Tunbridge Wells to try mine.

My car is set up for comfort and looks like it rides a bit high, this is to cope with the potholes and feirce speed humps we get around here. I have remote central locking, heated front & rear screens and a quite lairy shade of light tan leather for the interior. Its my company car by the way

Andy's has the latest hub conversion with knock on wheels and a few other gizmo's such as intermittent wipers, I think he runs his suspension a bit harder and lower than mine.

From your posts you are already sold on the idea of going the Zetec route, but there are a couple of items such as the turning circle (lack of steering lock) and the gearbox gate being a bit of a compromise to consider, which you can only really do first hand.

Regards

[Elanintheforest]

I am quite ambivalent about the subject, Spinney. I just think that justifying doing something on the basis that the original was so poor (by modern standards) is nonsense. I also think that justifying absolute originality because that?s the way it was made is pretty blinkered. As I said earlier, I think that it would be a very interesting project,

As for what ?Colin? would have wanted, I would suggest that anything that maximised profit from the venture would do it. He wasn?t interested in the Elan once it was past the concept stage other than it being a cash cow for racing. Best to ask Ron Hickman what he?d have had?.he?s the real ?father? of the Elan. Have a look at Ross Robinshaw to see what Colin thought of Ron?s designs for the Plus 2.

I guess that the Elan, and the E Type, suffer from being so good in the 60s. The fact that they can ?compete? with modern cars at all is a fantastic testimony to the original design. But because they are so close to moderns in many ways, the feeling is that with a little bit more technology, they can be as ?good?, whist retaining that 60?s appeal. They can?t, of course, but perhaps they can get closer.

But go back a little further in time, and the urge or desire to modernise seems to diminish. A fuel injected MG TC, or a Healey 3000 with a BMW 6 cylinder engine doesn?t seem to be on anybody?s agenda. I?m restoring an Elite currently?.how about a Hayabusa Turbo engine in that with 6 speed sequential box? Bullet-proof technology, 3 times the power and less weight ?.it all seems to make sense, and surely what ?Lotus? would have done in 1957 if it had been available?. It could probably be done for less than ?5k as well. But I wouldn?t do it, and I doubt that many others would.

And yet putting a Zetec into an Elan seems OK to me?.or a TWR 6 litre V12 into a S3 E Type. I can?t quite work out why!!
Mark

[Spyder fan]

Mark said
"And yet putting a Zetec into an Elan seems OK to me?.or a TWR 6 litre V12 into a S3 E Type. I can?t quite work out why!!"

Mark, it's because they are gagging for it!!

And thanks for making me neglect work this morning so I can read about Griff 500's!!!!

[pauljones]

spinney,i to am about to start a conversion on an early spyder chassis. to keep the theme, im building a twink on a 1700cc 711m bottom end. upgrading to the 5 speed box,also adding a 3.55 diff. the majority of the suspension will be the origonal lotus running gear,just refurbed.i wass intending on changing to bolt on wheels but after a bit of research sticking with the spinners and 13inchers.

i think this way its just an upgrade to a stiffer although slighty heavier chassis.as for a zetec im not saying you shouldnt i just love the sound of the twink at 7k...!!! intoxicating, good luck.

i think more people should be happy that our cars are still on the road after all these years,not worrying about what engines provide the power.

[fitzy1]

Spinney

Good luck with your car . If you do visit Spyder, via Tunbridge Wells you can come over and try mine also if you want, I'm only about 20 miles from Spyder

[jono]

I have been following this thread with interest since my earlier post.

When I bought my Plus 2 in bits 3 years ago, I was absolutely sold on the Zetec route and nothing would change my mind. However the inertia in starting to rebuild gave me time to reflect and after time I completely changed my view. It simply had to have the TC because that was the soul of the car.

I sold a modern Caterham (K with 6 speed) to buy my Plus 2 and fund the resto which was huge fun and very quick but ultimately a soulless experience. It wasn't a Lotus.

It is difficult to describe what motivates me to spend long hours in the garage - the car will never be worth what it is costing me but I just feel that I have a 'calling' to save a piece of british motoring heritage . It also gives me a chance to spend hours with my son in the garage and he (8 years old) insisted on the TC engine - he 'gets' it!

If I wanted something quick I could have bought an Elise but it would not be the same. The TC has character and heritage and it's worth keeping the car and the engine together IMO.

....you may yet change your mind

[Spinney]

Maybe. We will see.

[memnon]

I've had a lot of thought about this and my two penneth follows:

If I had lots of time and a wrecked +2 but little money I'd buy a a cheap zetec and do the work myself to fit it.

If I wanted 250HP, in an Elan, I'd do it with a zetec

If I had money but no time and only wanted the car for normal road use, i'd put jenvey's and emerald ECU on the std twin cam

If I wanted to do 30 000 to 50 000 miles a year in an Elan - I'd buy a spyder conversion

If I wanted performance out of an Elan that I could use for light competition - I'd do what I am doing: 150HP Twin cam ECU & Jenvey's, adjustable suspension, no donuts and poly bushes.

If it were just for the road, I'd probably have left it as standard.