Converting a +2S to Spyder chassis with a Zetec

[Spinney]

I know the Zetec isn't the most modern engine and, in fact, I had a 275 bhp Duratec in my last Caterham but to be honest I think the Zetec is still a very sound engine and pretty bomb proof in stock trim or even with mild tuning to around the 200 bhp mark.

Probably the only person who would need to worry about shifting on an Elan with a non standard engine will be my son, as I have no intention of getting rid of the car once it is sorted.

[dmode]

Terry.. I am with you all the way...
I do not see anything wrong in an engine swap, IF THE ENGINE IS PERIOD! like a Triumph GT6 with a TR6 engine. But replacing a Twin cam with a Zetec takes the soul out of the car. It makes sense so upgrade a classic car with period mods though, and when the +2 was new, a lot of conventional tuning was around. And yes ACBC would probably approve of the Zetec in a current model, but surely not in a car that Lotus designed otherwise And getting 220 bhp`s in a Elan+2 is missing the point in my humble opinion. It is a sixties GT car, not a customcar/hotrod. I used to drive classic cars as daily drivers. Now my job forces med to use a company car, but I would swap it anytime for a classic daily driver with its original engine. It can be done! My "Loti" is by far the most modern feeling classic car, I have ever owned. It took some time getting used to its soft and comfortable ride, 5 speeds, electric windows, outside ambient tempature gauge, and quiet tourqey twin cam engine I can not wait, taking the Lotus on a 5000 km. trip round europe like I did my 67 Porsche. The Lotus feels superior to any other classic I have owned. What a package

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Oddly enough, I started my motoring with a 100E Prefect, then moved on to an Anglia which ended up with a 1650 engine, before moving on to a Mk 1 Lotus Cortina. Oh how I wish I had kept that car when I see the prices now!

Anyhow no, I wouldn't consider changing anything on an Elite but then again, I wouldn't want to drive one every day either. I can see this is a very emotive issue for you but I promise I will carry out the conversion sympathetically. As for the other potential issues regarding electrics and vacuum operated headlamps etc, for me that will be all part of the fun in getting the car fully sorted over time.

I love to build cars and having had 2 Caterhams which I built and then duly upgraded to very high specs and several rebuilds later, I really need another challenge. As I have always loved the +2, it just seemed right for me to choose this as a base and improve on the known weaknesses and, while I'm at it, upgrade the engine and drivetrain. I am at the time of life where I am no longer bothered about turning it into a car that will hold, or improve, it's value. Rather I just want the kind of car that I can have some fun with and I guess this would do it for me really.

Having said all that, I do still like the good old Twin Cam. I just think it can be improved upon.

Well good luck & enjoy doing the project, I know it was great fun for me.
I hope that I've kept my view on the subject impartial & like yourself having a foot in both camps so to say.

Hi Mark S.

you mentioned;
"The Zetec is not a modern engine. It is already dated and was not a great engine in its day. The Duratech is far superior but one day even that wll be replaced".
Well yes the Zetec is no longer a modern engine & in it's day did not have such niceties as variable valve timing etc.
But it was/is a good solid engine made of good castings etc., materials, machined & assembled using modern facilities & tolerances. A built for life engine.
Up to 200 BHP can be easily obtained without major changes & it will bolt straight in where the Twincam sits.
The engine is/was used very successfull in various racing catagories.
The Duratec uses an alloy crankcase & a Morse timing chain which are definately improvements, but apart from being a bit lighter it's quite bit bigger & the intake/exhaust ports are reversed; making it an almost impossible choice in the case being discussed.
It's also not that modern in design.

Modern is the BMW "NG4" or the Mini "Prince engine"; variable everything

Nix f?r ungut
Cheers
John

[Elanintheforest]

John makes a very good point. If you?re looking for more reliability and usability, then the engine and gearbox is probably the last thing to change.

However, more importantly is the issue of originality. How could you think of replacing the beautiful twink with a mere Ford engine. Take a look at my Plus 2 engine bay?.original, as it was, and always will be?..nothing else would look right. Or sound right. Or go as well. Amen.

Bet you used to pull the wings off flies as well?.

[Craig Elliott]

Spinney

I got involved in a comparison test between my +2 S130/5 and a Zetec engined +2 for an article in Classics Monthly a while ago (see elan-f15/classics-monthly-magazine-t17507.html).

Basically much depends on how you build/restore the car - suspension settings etc will make a great deal of difference as to the usability of the car on the road. The 200+bhp of the Zetec car tested was great fun but the suspension was set up (to my mind) overly stiff for road use but it would probably be easy to resolve this. That said the normal +2 isn't lacking in fun factor. I have to say that I wasn't overly "sold" on the position of the central handbrake, nor the shift pattern of the T9(?) gearbox which seemed to have a very wide gate.

Why don't you try to test both out and then make a decision?

Craig

[terryp]

Oh I've just had a great idea!
We get a Mark 1 Lotus Cortina and "update" its Twincam with a Zetec.
Now would that be a Lotus or would it be a Cortina with a Mondeo engine and Sierra gearbox

[JJDraper]

This is a question in two parts, with difficult answers. The first decision is to go for a Spyder chassis rather than a Lotus replacement. I went for Spyder because a number of maintenance tasks are so much easier - propshaft & diff access, engine mountings away from exhaust heat as well as a few others. General access is easier, and its lighter too. From a strictly monetary point of view this may be a retrograde step, as originality seems to count here. But don't get hung up on originality if you intend to use the car....

I understand the Spyder spaceframe chassis comes in two flavours; backwards compatible and hard core Zetec/T9 Gbox, diff and running gear. The backwards compatible version allows the use of a Zetec & T9, but not the full Sierra diff & running gear. The payoff is that you can still use your T/C & running gear (even twin wishbones if you want), but could switch to a Zetec & T9 if the mood takes you. The Hard Core Zetec chassis uses Zetec, T9 & all Sierra running gear, but you can't go back to T/C & standard G/box etc.

I went for the indecisive option (oxymoron?) and kept my reliable T/C which hasn't been touched during this rebuild (if it works, leave it alone).

Good luck with your decision!

Jeremy
PS Craig, it would be interesting to know which flavour of chassis you tested. The answer may have a bearing on the subjective feeling of harshness in the ride...

[Spinney]

Elanintheforest, is that pic of your engine bay? If so I hate to say this but that isn't a Lotus twin cam and as far as I'm aware, Lotus never fitted the 16v BDR engine to the Elan so surely yours is no more original than mine would be.

I like the idea of marrying a classic car with (more) modern technology. Look at the Eagle conversions on Mk 2 and E Type Jaguars for example where they take the classic shape and fit uprated brakes, suspension and more modern power trains. Ok it may not appeal to the purists and if you are the type that enjoys standing at the side of the road with the bonnet up trying to change a set of points then fair enough it maybe isn't for you, but I love to solve engineering problems and improve on the original where possible, without changing its character overly much. What I do hate is a piece of engineering that isn't as good as it could be for the intended purpose and that is where I think this conversion pays off, for me anyhow.

[andyelan]

Hi Everyone

Just a few more points for clarification.

First I doubt very much Chapman would have used a Ford Zetec in any of his cars. His goal was always to produce his own engine as per Porsche and Ferrari and this he finally did with the 907 engine. His aim was always to minimise dependence on outside manufactures as far as possible (this is what stopped a proposal by Tony Rudd to build a 16valve 2 litre replacement for the Twin Cam based on a pinto block)

Secondly he hated customers (and racing drivers for that matter) messing about with the chassis/suspension set up of his cars. He didn't think customers were comptent enough to knew what they were doing. That's why you'll never find any provision suspension adjustment on early Lotus road cars unlike say 26Rs and 47s. It's not an oversight, it's deliberate

Finally I dont think Chapman would have had any interest whatsever in Elans or Plus2 etc. as classics. He was always far more focused on what was comming next rather than what had gone on in the past. I doubt very much the Elise would ever have been produced if he had still been running Lotus

Andy

[Spyder fan]

Spinney,

I own a +2 Spyder Zetec, so I ought to get my 2 penneth in here. I love +2's regardless of whether they are original or modified, it's mostly the external beauty of a timeless design that gets me. I owned my +2 in standard form for 3 years before I converted it, it was a great car then and is a great car now.
Things I like about the conversion:
1) extra power and the knowledge that if I break the engine the bill will be a lot less than half the cost of a standard LTC.
2) The solid driveshafts and limited slip diff make my +2 a traffic light racer if I'm in the mood, the other car has to be something really special to beat 180bhp and a total weight of 920 kilos all up including the driver.
3) The suspension is virtually as Colin Chapman intended, only major difference is the very sensible Spyder upgrade with extra upper rear wishbones. The springs and dampers are adjustable, but you can do that with a standard car if you want.
4) Another sensible Spyder upgrade is to run 14inch wheels, this opens up a world of possibilities for performance related tyres, I run Yokohama's 185/60/14. I don't think you can get any sensible performance road tyres for the 13 inch wheels.
5) Unless you look under the bonnet....And you know what you are looking at, the car looks and sounds standard, (it pops and bangs on the overrun) it even drives the same.

Things I don't miss from my standard days
1) oil leaks. Please don't anyone tell me that they can all be fixed... I know they can, but the dedication required is enormous.
2) transmission windup through those pesky rubber doughnut things, even if you upgrade to solid the standard clutch isn't up to the job.
3) Trunnions
4) The standard wiring loom and all those relays
5) Fuel consumption below 25mpg (I average over 40 now)
6) the cost and quality of replacement parts

Conclusion
A Spyder Zetec +2 is quicker than a standard +2 especially in 180+bhp form, it grips better courtesy of 14inch rims with modern performance road tyres, it handles and rides better courtesy of the Spyder wishbones and modern ball joint set up (but not by much), it has lower day to day running costs. These four things are important to me, but they may not be to other owners who may prize originality and classic ownership over performance and ease of living with, good luck to them and rest assured I will always admire their cars and the Lotus heritage
To me, my car is a sensible alternative to a new Elise....which by the way has a Toyota engine in it.
Nuff said

Regards


Alan

[rocket]

Spinney do you have a plus 2 that you are about to remove a twincam from?

Ian.

[Spyder fan]

BTW there's a very low cost bargain looking +2 zetec on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... SS:GB:1123

or item number 120447997294

?15,950 is seriously cheap if the conversion has been done properly........

[Spyder fan]

But the plus 2 is not being produced now.. ......It was last produced 35 years ago

If it were possible would you really put a Zetec in a 1960 Lotus Elite because you wanted to drive it on the road everyday.
Similarly would you put one in Ford V8 Pilot to enable trouble free motoring whist driving to work.
I think the answer to the above 2 scenarios is No, then why would anyone want to do the same to a plus 2

My first car was a Ford 100E with a sidevalve engine , I dreamed about being able to put a 1500cc Anglia engine in it , but I kept it as it was and bought a Ginetta G15 to use for work. (Very Practical!)

What I'm trying to say is a Lotus Elan +2 has a Lotus Twincam Engine in it, anything else and it becomes a "Custom Car" just like the Zephyrs and Zodiacs with a V8 and Jaguar IRS. Surely if the car doesn't do the job that you want it to do then you have to look at another car?
I feel better now
Terry

Terry,

Would you buy a new Caterham with a sidevalve engine in it? The Spyder +2 Zetec is an ongoing development in the same vein.

regards

[Elanintheforest]

Mr Spinney, I was being ironic?but failed miserably. Yes it is my engine bay, and the BDA was fitted in 1971. When Motoring News tested the car, they reported that ?this was the engine Lotus should have fitted to the Plus 2 instead of the big valve?, which upset a few folk at Lotus.

I would have no qualms about fitting a Zetec to an Elan?there are plenty to go around! Whether or not it is better than an original is a personal choice, but a lot depends on the capability of the person building it. I?ve seen and driven a couple of stunning conversions, but unfortunately have also experienced some absolute dogs. It?s an expensive business to do properly, and that?s if you have a fair bit of skill?otherwise it?s a very expensive business.

I guess my main gripe is when folks compare a newly born Spyder conversion to an old shed of a Plus 2 that?s fit for the scrappers. Of course it?s in a different league. But compare a well built Spyder to a well restored Plus 2, then you can perhaps make a balanced decision.

E Types are my other passion, and the debate of original vs upgraded is a constant topic. The upgraded Eagle cars are usually bought as toys by blokes who, after a year and 800 miles of posing, find the Bentley far more comfy and much easier to drive. Have a look at the Eagle website and see how many 2, 4, 6 year old cars are for sale with sub-2000 miles on the clock. The price tag of ?150k doesn?t attract many enthusiasts. Even though they stop well, go well and handle a little better, you can?t alter the basic aerodynamics of the car. Lots of people put in 5 speed boxes as a fine upgrade, only to find that the reduction in engine noise at a fast cruising speed means that you can now hear the roar of the wind noise from around the door windows ?same with a Plus 2 I?m afraid.

Both you an Alan have jumped straight into the ?original is trouble? mode. You talk of the E Type with the bonnet up at the side of the road having the points changed. What a load of crap! Mine?s never let me down in thousands of miles / 12 years. Not once.

Alan talks about twincams pouring out oil. Mine don?t?not even the BDA! Standard clutch not upto it? Mine has a standard clutch with 170bhp from the BDA. No problems in 80,000 miles / 38 years. Wind up from the rotoflexes? Have you ever driven a car with rotoflexes, or just repeating the pub talk from others who haven?t tried it?. A learner driver would probably find it strange, but after an hour or so they are completely normal.

I?ve never had problems with the electrics either. Many people do, but that?s because they are trying to use a 40 year old car that hasn?t been restored or maintained properly.

Come on guys, get a bit of perspective. Do the conversion because it?s a fun and challenging thing to do, and enjoy it for what it is. But if you think you?ll create something that can?t be achieved with a standard well restored car, then I think you may be disappointed. If you want a fast, hairy Brit sports car, a TVR Griffith 500 can be bought for the price of a good Zetec conversion. That will out-perform an Elan, no matter how upgraded, in every dimension.

And for the price of a Spyder built conversion, you could have a beautifully restored Plus 2 AND a Griff.

[terryp]

But the plus 2 is not being produced now.. ......It was last produced 35 years ago

If it were possible would you really put a Zetec in a 1960 Lotus Elite because you wanted to drive it on the road everyday.
Similarly would you put one in Ford V8 Pilot to enable trouble free motoring whist driving to work.
I think the answer to the above 2 scenarios is No, then why would anyone want to do the same to a plus 2

My first car was a Ford 100E with a sidevalve engine , I dreamed about being able to put a 1500cc Anglia engine in it , but I kept it as it was and bought a Ginetta G15 to use for work. (Very Practical!)

What I'm trying to say is a Lotus Elan +2 has a Lotus Twincam Engine in it, anything else and it becomes a "Custom Car" just like the Zephyrs and Zodiacs with a V8 and Jaguar IRS. Surely if the car doesn't do the job that you want it to do then you have to look at another car?
I feel better now
Terry

Terry,

Would you buy a new Caterham with a sidevalve engine in it? The Spyder +2 Zetec is an ongoing development in the same vein.

regards

No but I wouldn't mind a Lotus 7 series 1 with a 1172cc sidevalve running full Aquaplane
So presumably the "Spyder +2 Zetec" has now dropped the Lotus pretence