Servo - yes or no ?

[Chris-72-Sprint]

I would welcome views on whether or not to use the servo on my sprint rebuild.

I dont mind pressing the brake pedal a bit harder and after driving my Messerschmitt bubblecar with cable brakes anything is better

Thanks
Chris

[neilsjuke]

I used mine with out for a while would be ok for the track but it's nice to have the servo back on for the road when in a more relaxed type of drive
Neil

[Elanintheforest]

Chris
The harder you push the brake pedal, the more stress you're putting on the fibreglass bulkhead..........Do you want any more convincing?

I have a spare Heinkel (with proper hydraulic brakes) to swap for the 'Schmitt!!

Mark

[Chris-72-Sprint]

Thanks Neil and Mark

Good point on the bulkhead - based on your replies I will re-use the servo - it looks nearly new so should be ok.

Heinkel - yes bit more sophisticated than the Schmitt but I have had the Schmitt since 1974 so its part of the family now

thanks
Chris

[Elanintheforest]

Chris, you must have bought the Schmitt before others had realised what amazing machines they are?I?m sure you know that they are now the value of a reasonable Sprint! At 6ft 4inches I can?t fit into one unfortunately?or at least, I can fit in, but can?t get out!

Back to the Sprint. As you?re going to town on the car, something to think about. There are a lot of mucked about cars around, with owners making ?improvements? over the years. These cars have usually gone through many owners, each of whom may have added their own goodies, then got bored and sold on. Original bits get lost, and the car ends up being a jumble of stuff that was ?must-have? in the 80s, 90s and more recently.

It?s your car and of course you can do what you like with it, but if you change from standard spec to something else, keep the original stuff and make the mod so that it can go back to standard. I?m sure that owning the ?Schmitt you appreciate the whole originality thing, and if someone turned up in a fibreglass bodied Honda engined ?Schmitt replica it would cause some interest, but probably wouldn?t command the ?10k or so that the original car does.

It?s not just about the value, but the value does reflect the desirability of the car.


Mark

[Briggs1]

I am in the same position.
The servos that came with the car "Look" good - meaning nice and clean - is there a way to test them before reinstalling to verify they are in good mechanical shape?

Thanks,
Briggs

[lotuselan2]

Chris
You do not have to brake the bulkhead without the servo. A non-servo car should have a smaller bore master cylinder. The Cortina non-servo cars are good donors but even smaller is better. I think 5/8" is the right master for a non-servo car. I converted my Europa and my +2 to non-servo, small bore master cylinder setups. It is a cheap, permanent and low-maintenance solution.
Ken
p.s. There should be some archive threads on this subject, here and the Europa site.

[triumphelan]

Could there be any legal problems when removing the servo in the event of an insurance claim??

[garyeanderson]

I wouldn't use a servo in an Elan even if they worked. Tha amout of people with problems on forum is enough to make me want to run away as fast as I can from the Girling servo. The S1's and S2's didn't have them until the SE came out, this was Chapman's way of moving up market and giving the customer something very little and recieving more money. The bulkhead don't break, S3's and S4's are not any thinner fiberglass on the firewall. As Ken says a 5/8 inch master is all that is needed to give a good pedal. With 4 wheel disk brakes there is very little fluid movement, if you have fluid movement its because the disk rotors are warped. Leave the stupid servo at home in the garage and go have some fun. If you want to win a contest go buy another classic car.
I drove Bills Plus 2 a couple weeks ago, I have not ever driven an Elan or Plus 2 with the servo before, It scared me, nothing and then every thing, I guess its something you need to get used to.

Gary

p.s. - on a Plus2 you need to use somekind of a servo, there is very little fiberglass structure in the peddal boxs area. at least that was the case on the Plus 2 I sold Bill.

[lotuselan2]

Gary
No reason for a servo on a +2 either. My car is a +2 and my previous experience with no servo was a Europa. Both are fine with no servo. Like you said, there is little fluid movement in a non-servo car with well bled system. The smaller diameter master gives you higher pressure for the same pedal pressure.
Ken
p.s. Maybe Chapman added the servo's because he got a good deal on warped rotors!

[billwill]

I took my servo out of circuit some 30 years ago and have not missed it. You soon get used to the amount of non-servo pedal pressure in normal running.
And no, I have not fitted a different master cylinder. This bulkhead issue is a myth. There is probably more pedal pressure on the Clutch anyway. [If you don't believe me, on a clear road with nothing behind you just try pressing the brake pedal with your left foot like you would typically do for a gear change. You will probably screech to a halt!]

The reason I took it out of circuit is because I found that sometimes in a traffic queue one would dab the brake & stall the engine while the car was still rolling forward slowly then in the 'heat of the moment' one's foot would not believe the amount of brake pedal pressure need with no vacuum assist. Twice I shunted slowly into the back of a vehicle in front !! After which I disconnected the dratted thing.

Never have gotten around to taking it out of the car though; been carrying its dead weight all these years & now the bolts are well set in and I cannot easily get it out.

[steveww]

No servo in my S4 but it does have +2 front brakes. Still on the same master cylinder. The pedal pressure is greater but the feel is so much better. I use EBC Green pads.

[garyeanderson]

No servo in my S4 but it does have +2 front brakes. Still on the same master cylinder. The pedal pressure is greater but the feel is so much better. I use EBC Green pads.

Hi Steve
With the larger in diameter front pistons you have effectively changed the ratio overall so it should make the pedal easier to push for the same amount of braking force. You have also changed the front to rear bias in the direction of the front so as you push even harder on the pedal the fronts should lock up earlier. Whether the rears still lock first, I cant say as I havn't added the P16's calipers and rotors to any of my Elan's. The smaller 5/8 master would make the pedal even easier to push on to give an even lighter pedal. As has been said before, there is very little fuid movement (unless the rotors are warped) so this would be a plus.

Gary

[Elanintheforest]

Bill, the bulkhead issue isn't a myth...I've been in an Elan when the pedals were pushed through it under heavy braking. The cause wasn't just the heavy pressure being applied, but also the weakness of the fibreglass due to being soaked in oil and probably brake fluid for years, combined with a bit of corrosion in the lattice frame where the pedals mount. It hadn't been poorly repaired previously either, just an original, if a bit grubby, Elan. But the driver was pushing as hard as he could, due to lousy brakes.

I do agree with others comments that the Elan doesn't need a servo if it has the right size master cylinder and softer pads...after all, only the S/E had the servo fitted as standard up to the Sprint. My recently acquired S4 S/E has lousy brakes, and I guess that either the servo isn't working properly or the pads are too hard...or both.

I do question the advantage of fitting Plus 2 callipers to the front on a 2 seat road car. On my Elan that has good brakes, the wheels lock with ease, so better braking on the front will only upset the balance, won't it? Or is it a mod just recommended for track cars or cars with a bigger tyre contact patch / sticky rubber?

Mark

[garyeanderson]

Bill, the bulkhead issue isn't a myth...I've been in an Elan when the pedals were pushed through it under heavy braking. The cause wasn't just the heavy pressure being applied, but also the weakness of the fibreglass due to being soaked in oil and probably brake fluid for years, combined with a bit of corrosion in the lattice frame where the pedals mount. It hadn't been poorly repaired previously either, just an original, if a bit grubby, Elan. But the driver was pushing as hard as he could, due to lousy brakes.

Mark

This sounds like a maintenance issue, one or more of the calipers probably had sieized pistons or cheap crap pads and you cant blame the Elan design for someone that won't spend the money to fix the brakes. This is just the case of some cheap sob running around in a car that is a danger to himself, his passenger and the public. I don't beleive the servo equiped Elan would have come off any better in the scituation you put forth Mark. In a 2 passenger Elan, I say again there is no need for one. Its just adds weight and complexity to the system and one more point of potential failure. Why is it that the second ot third most asked question on this site deals with servos? This is just after what tires and 5 speeds.

Gary