Brake line lengths (hose) front vs rear

[Elan45]

I took my project Elan pre-airflow Coupe apart several years ago. Put the old hoses in a plastic bag and labeled them at the time, but over the years the label has gone missing. I ordered new stainless braided hoses a while back and its getting close to time for them to be installed. So which length goes on the front/ rear?

Also, I have a pair of the plastic coil springies that are supposed to go onto the rear hoses and the last time I did this, I was using rubber hoses which were more susceptible to kinking and needed the coils. I'm thinking I don't need the coils on the braided hoses???

Roger

[StressCraxx]

Hello Roger,

IIRC, the long hoses go on the rear because of the longer suspension travel. I would still use the coil springs, because the stainless braid acts like a hacksaw on anything it touches. The moment one of those little braids breaks, it will soon find it's way into your fingers or hand... Guaranteed...

[2cams70]

I must admit that i detest braided hoses. You can't see the condition of the hose underneath and you can't see what grade of hose has been used. As always if the OEM didn't use braided hoses originally you need to ask yourself why you need them now.

Bottom line is that the rubber hose contained within should be designed to withstand whatever pressure it's subject to without the assistance of external braid for reinforcement. You'll never see an OEM using braided brake hoses. You'll never see a commercial vehicle with a design life of maybe 1,000,000 km using braided hoses.

I've removed 45+ year old original fitment unbraided rubber brake hoses from vehicle that are still in good condition. I recently purchased some brake hoses for my car and deliberately went out of my way to ensure they were as close to original specification as possible and not braided. It's hard to find replacement brake hoses for vehicles like ours that aren't braided these days. It probably crept in as a marketing gimmick originally and then every other aftermarket brake hose manufacturer decided they needed to do the same in order to be in with the crowd. Either that or they all now come from the same source and are just rebranded (more likely).

[Andy8421]

I must admit that i detest braided hoses. You can't see the condition of the hose underneath and you can't see what grade of hose has been used. As always if the OEM didn't use braided hoses originally you need to ask yourself why you need them now.

Bottom line is that the rubber hose contained within should be designed to withstand whatever pressure it's subject to without the assistance of external braid for reinforcement. You'll never see an OEM using braided brake hoses. You'll never see a commercial vehicle with a design life of maybe 1,000,000 km using braided hoses.

I've removed 45+ year old original fitment unbraided rubber brake hoses from vehicle that are still in good condition. I recently purchased some brake hoses for my car and deliberately went out of my way to ensure they were as close to original specification as possible and not braided. It's hard to find replacement brake hoses for vehicles like ours that aren't braided these days. It probably crept in as a marketing gimmick originally and then every other aftermarket brake hose manufacturer decided they needed to do the same in order to be in with the crowd. Either that or they all now come from the same source and are just rebranded (more likely).

While I would agree with you for no-name pre-made fuel lines using rubber pipe under the braid (I have had two of these fail), decent quality braided brake pipes (Goodridge etc) use PTFE liners which should last forever. The braiding limits the expansion of the pipe, and provides a firmer pedal than using standard rubber reinforced pipes which expand under pressure. Good quality braided pipes are substantially more expensive than the rubber reinforced equivalent, and my guess is that is the main driver as far as car manufacturers choices go.

[2cams70]

quote="Andy8421"]Good quality braided pipes are substantially more expensive than the rubber reinforced equivalent, and my guess is that is the main driver as far as car manufacturers choices go[/quote]

Although that's a common perception from those outside the industry the actual reality is that this is rarely the case. Car manufacturers face enormous liabilities if things go wrong. It may be a $5 hose but to replace it including the dealer labour charge, fluid cost, etc. multiplied by the number of vehicles affected the costs very quickly mount up.

If the hose is flexing under pressure then something is wrong with the hose. It needs better internal reinforcement not external braid.

May be fine on a toy or race car that doesn't need to meet the same durability standards

[Andy8421]

Good quality braided pipes are substantially more expensive than the rubber reinforced equivalent, and my guess is that is the main driver as far as car manufacturers choices go

Although that's a common perception from those outside the industry the actual reality is that this is rarely the case. Car manufacturers face enormous liabilities if things go wrong. It may be a $5 hose but to replace it including the dealer labour charge, fluid cost, etc. multiplied by the number of vehicles affected the costs very quickly mount up.

If the hose is flexing under pressure then something is wrong with the hose. It needs better internal reinforcement not external braid.

May be fine on a toy or race car that doesn't need to meet the same durability standards

I agree that initial cost is only one parameter that a car manufacturer would consider, warranty claims and liability for failure would also be part of the analysis. However, initial cost does play a part, and a quick check of Goodridge hose prices vs reinforced rubber equivalent has the Goodridge prices at at least 3x the price of reinforced rubber.
As for durability, it is worth pointing out that the company is called Goodridge Aeroquip for a reason, as they started life (and still do) supply flexible hoses to the aerospace industry. The following picture is the wheel well of a Boeing 737-700. If you zoom in, there is a lot of metal braided hoses in there which would be surprising if durability was an issue.

https://imgur.com/gallery/Y8wgzmY

Edit: While my argument still stands, I was wrong about Goodridge Aeroquip. Goodridge is a UK producer of 'fluid transfer solutions', (brake pipes) and Aeroquip is a US based pipe and fittings manufacturer owned by Eaton. Goodridge Aeroquip brake pipes are made by Goodridge using parts and pipes made by Aeroquip. I am not sure if Goodridge supply the aerospace industry, but Aeroquip do. Interesting history below.

https://goodridge.com/uk-blog/goodridge_celebrates_50_years/

[2cams70]

The way it often works in the industry is that any new technology is usually first used in a high end vehicle because cost is less of a consideration and these cars generally have less severe use.

Once proved in that application and the unit cost decreases because of volume the more mainstream vehicles get the new technology if it proves itself to be worthy.

I've yet to see braided brake hoses used by an OEM even in a high end or heavy duty commercial vehicle which suggests they are either of negligible benefit, not durable enough or there's some other issue with them

I'm not saying these are bad hoses. It's just a personal opinion that I'd rather go with OEM style particularly for a vehicle that's primarily used on road.

An aircraft gets a lot better maintenance than the majority of cars by the way. Parts are replaced at set intervals. You certainly wouldn't find 45+ year old hose in an aircraft still going strong!

[h20hamelan]

Same discussion on Mercedes 107 forums lately, people wanting to make their on flex/rubber lines.
As there is not really machines (dies) for crimping rubber, it would be nice if Mastercool or others would have these. I suppose another project for the mill, but, then finding a supplier for the ends.
Anyone know of a seller for brake ends. I will ask on MB too, as I am now curious.

[Craven]

UK MOT’s Inspectors delight, Brake hose slightly deteriorated 1.1.12 (b) advisory.

[Donels]

Check out carbuilder.com they supply all parts to make up your own hoses and a video on YouTube on how to do it.

[h20hamelan]

maybe not for rubber flex lines though. Only the stainless braided?

[StressCraxx]

There's really nothing wrong with the braided stainless lines with the teflon hose inside. They produce a nice firm, consistent pedal. Very few OEMs use them because they are more labor intensive to fabricate and assemble. They tend to go on the higher end track focused cars. I have them on my Formula Ford for brakes and clutch hose. If I damage one from an off, I can make a new hose assembly in about 15 minutes with the spare hose and olives I have in my kit.

Service mechanics don't like them because they like to use a pair of locking pliers clamped on the rubber hose to troubleshoot bad calipers. That technique won't work with braided stainless.

[Elan45]

In the mid-70's, I was involved in an industry that was rebuilding large electrical generators and when these units get so big, cooling the windings becomes a significant issue. Most manufacturers used de-ionized water , often passing it directly through the windings. This was my introduction to use of teflon internal, Stainless braided hoses inside these generators. You can NOT have a leak in there. And there are reasons for required flexibility, least of which is thermal expansion. Most hoses I saw or specified were of Aeroquip manufacture.

Next, I was involved in manufacture of underground mining equipment. Same hoses.

At the same time, I was involved in building Datsun 510 stage rally cars and competing in them. Eric and I built and rallied what had to be the fastest 510 on the Stages and stock 510 brakes were quite deficient. Earls (Aeroquip) modified Z car calipers and of course they were fitted w/ Aeroquip hoses. Eric and I took a long look at building a new Datsun 200SX, but realized it would be a massive effort and he sold the old 510, while I commenced restoration of my Elan Super Safety. I used original equip rubber hoses on it, but then bought my Eleven S2 LeMans. It was ready for the track in 1989 and it was fitted w Goodridge SS braided hoses. I raced it usually 3 times a year through 2001 and it is still wearing those SS hoses. So, when I restored my 20/22 Formula Junior, finished in 2001, It received Goodridge SS hoses that I made up in my shop with components supplied by Goodridge in South Carolina.

Back in the 1980s, I was steered into using DOT 5 Silicone fluid which I used on the Elan. I was never happy w/ the compressabiliy and fade. Several years ago, I was on a tour in the Elan and found the clutch fluid level was low and I was forced to top up w/ DOT3 fluid to get home. I decided to rebuild all the hydraulics before replacing all the fluids w/ Girling Castrol LMA DOT4 fluid. Since I use that in both the racing Lotus, it makes good sense to have one fluid for all.

While I was in UK in 1990, I was able to pick up a set of hoses from Goodridge that I had pre-ordered for my 1960 Falcon bodied Sprite. They should finally be fitted this summer. So, I can say I am very happy w/ stainless braided teflon hoses. I should probably mention we've made up SS hoses for my son's Honda 550 & Kawasaki.

Roger

[h20hamelan]

"UK in 1990, I was able to pick up a set of hoses from Goodridge that I had pre-ordered for my 1960 Falcon bodied Sprite. They should finally be fitted this summer."

I am at the same speed, though likely not on the track

[2cams70]

I often hear the argument "it's OK on a race car therefore it must be fine on a road car"

It's like comparing apples with oranges. Road cars have much stricter design requirements than race cars. Usually it is either durability or regulatory design requirements that prevent what is accepted as being OK for a race car also being OK for a road car.

I often see parts advertised as meeting ECE, ADR or whatever else a particular regulatory design standard may be. It seems there is a lot of confusion about "meeting the standard" and actually submitting test reports and documentation to the regulatory body, paying the relevant fees and obtaining an official "compliance certificate" approval and registration number. Ask them for their compliance registration number and in most cases you'll get a blank stare.