Lotus Elan

Carburettor pipes leaking

PostPost by: Rob1n » Sat Mar 30, 2024 5:59 pm

Hi Guys happy easter.
I have attempted to fire up my +2 over the last couple of days with disappointment. Firstly I cannot get it to fire up which I think is fuel related. I fitted the aero type fuel pipes from the fuel pump to the Weber carbs. Unfortunately they are leaking at the connection of the carbs, one is worse than the other. My question is how do I stop them from leaking? My first thought was PTFE tape but would expect that the fuel would destroy that, any thoughts please.
Many thanks
Robin
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PostPost by: mbell » Sat Mar 30, 2024 6:14 pm

Imo Throw them in the bin!

They are a massive fire risk as often the internal hose is of very questionable materials and the ethanol eats them. Which is likely the cause of your issue.

Buy some ethanol safe standard hose and fittings and make your own up.
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PostPost by: alanr » Sat Mar 30, 2024 7:13 pm

I fully agree with mbell. You need ethanolproof rubber hose which conforms to at least R9 and better still R14. These steel braided hoses that the suppliers are selling have rubber hose inside of indeterminate quality which is dangerous from a fire hazard point of view.

Alan.
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PostPost by: TonyA » Sat Mar 30, 2024 9:09 pm

I had same,; changed to simple ethanol proof rubber hoses. Use proper fuel pipe clips, not small jubilee type..Tony
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Sun Mar 31, 2024 5:22 am

Robin, the comments above about hose quality are well taken, I have had the 'Y' shaped stainless braided hose on both my Elans fail. In one case after a winter layup, the hose looked like a garden sprinkler with multiple leaks spraying out along its length. I now use R9 hose which has solved the problems.

In answer to your specific points, PTFE tape is compatible with petrol, but you shouldn't need it. Could you be more specific about where the fuel is leaking? If you are not familiar with banjo type connections, its easy to miss or use the wrong size sealing washers.
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PostPost by: ElanDNA » Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:13 am

Like the others said, it needs ethanol proof fuel hoses.
My choice:
Gates_TB043_EN.pdf
(256.71 KiB) Downloaded 25 times

https://www.gatestechzone.com/en/product-info/passenger-cars-and-light-commercial-vehicles/hoses/fuel-hoses

This one is 30+ years old and like new, operating pressure with my EFI is 2.5 bar:
Change 58.jpg and


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PostPost by: Phil.C60 » Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:27 pm

I have braided pipes on my S4 with no issues (from Kelvedon), but I'm using E5. However, getting them to fit was another thing altogether. The supplied banjo bolts were too long so they bottomed out in the carburetters and didn't seal, even using the supplied aluminium sealing washers. I turned them down shorter and they've been fine since. I couldn't get them to seal with fibre washers though, and they do need to be quite tight. If you screw the banjo bolts in, without the pipes in place but with the sealing washers on, as far as you can with your fingers and then check the gap, you may find it's slightly bigger than the width of the banjo!
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PostPost by: Rob1n » Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:03 pm

Hi Guys thanks for the fantastic information as usual.
The set I have have aircraft type joints and they screw directly into the carbs so no banjos required. The leak seems to be coming from the connections into the carbs with one worse than the other maybe the threads are too long. As they are of an age but never used before perhaps the lining material has perished. Look like I shall take all your advise and go for new pipping and joints.
Thanks again for all your valued advise.
Robin
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:28 pm

Rob1n wrote:Hi Guys thanks for the fantastic information as usual.
The set I have have aircraft type joints and they screw directly into the carbs so no banjos required. The leak seems to be coming from the connections into the carbs with one worse than the other maybe the threads are too long.
Robin

I may be wrong, but I think the threads into the carbs are not taper threads and are not designed to seal. The seal is formed by a washer between the banjo and the flat machined in the carb body. You can use a fitting that is not a banjo, but it will still need a sealing washer up against the carb body.
68 Elan S3 HSCC Roadsports spec
71 Elan Sprint (being restored)
32 Standard 12
Various modern stuff
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PostPost by: Phil.C60 » Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:10 pm

In my experience that's correct. They are not a taper. They usually have a banjo of some description, whether with an AN fitting or a tube to take a rubber hose or are a braided pair with integral banjos. YMMV.
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PostPost by: alaric » Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:41 am

Hi. I found the R9 spec hose on the classicteamlotus site if of interest:

https://www.parts.classicteamlotus.co.u ... 3736-p.asp

Are people using this hose in the run from tank to engine? I was planning to use the nylon pipe supplied by Kelvedon. I haven't fitted it yet, so advice now would be appreciated. I've looked at Kunifer, Copper, Aluminium, but all appear questionable with Ethanol laced fuel.

Thanks.

Sean.
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PostPost by: alanr » Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:29 pm

alaric wrote:Hi. I found the R9 spec hose on the classicteamlotus site if of interest:

https://www.parts.classicteamlotus.co.u ... 3736-p.asp

Are people using this hose in the run from tank to engine? I was planning to use the nylon pipe supplied by Kelvedon. I haven't fitted it yet, so advice now would be appreciated. I've looked at Kunifer, Copper, Aluminium, but all appear questionable with Ethanol laced fuel.

Thanks.

Sean.


Original nylon hose from tank to mechanical pump will be fine.
From mech pump to carbs etc you need genuine R9 or genuine R14.
Not this:-
If that is the hose that CTL are currently selling as shown in the pic on their website it is almost certainly not genuine R9 Hose..Avoid!
Anything marked ( W=SAEJ30R9) is not genuine SAEJ30 R9 Hose!! ..I say again ..Avoid
If you Google search you will find lots of people having been caught out over the past few years...including me!...It is short life rubbish!
See here but there are lots of examples of people being caught out with this fake hose:-
https://tasteslikepetrol.net/2017/09/ps ... fuel-hose/
Or here:-
https://forum.tssc.org.uk/topic/11356-c ... uel-hoses/

Genuine R9 or R14 is more expensive..Gates Barricade being sold by Moss Europe is genuine R9/R14 at £14.29 per metre. They do in either 1/4'' or 5/16'' depending on what you require.
https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/fuel-hose ... 1025x.html

Alan.
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:17 pm

As Alan rightly points out, there is a lot of questionable pipe of unknown parentage with fancy numbers printed down the side out there.

I did quite a bit of research into specifications and manufacturers and settled upon Codan, a specialist Danish hose manufacturer. FWIW, I purchased the hose from these people, who were a professional firm to deal with:

https://www.thehosemaster.co.uk/r9-unleaded-petrol-diesel-ethanol-automotive-fuel-hose
68 Elan S3 HSCC Roadsports spec
71 Elan Sprint (being restored)
32 Standard 12
Various modern stuff
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PostPost by: TonyA » Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:36 pm

Another thing..anneal the coppee washers before fitting.. don't assume they're soft enough from the packet..!

Tony
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PostPost by: alaric » Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:59 pm

Ok thanks. I did pay more for the R9 hose that I bought a few weeks ago but had just noticed it on the CTL site. I didn't realise it was fake hose on the CTL site. That's worrying.

Sean.
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