Lotus Elan

Should we as owners try to set sensible +2 Prices

PostPost by: kwhittle » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:11 am

A regular topic on the Forum is "what's it worth"
Well, I for one think the subject is worth investigating further.

To start with the grade/categories need to be established. How about

1) Basket Case but 100% complete and original
A Twin Cam with ancilliaries inc carbs must be worth £4000 in any condition, a 4 speed gbox and Diff £500, a set of decent steel wheels with spinners £400, rear calipers £100. Making a total of £5000. A 5 speed gearbox is worth say £500
Trim, glass, seats, doors, bonnet, boot, drive shafts, instruments, steering wheel, original jack etc, Registration document, no doubt you can think of other useful items.

The bottom line is a Plus 2 has a minimum value of at least £6500.

Next category would be :
2) Drivable just about, complete and original no MOT test certificate

3) Drivable, 'on the road' legal car everything working, but a tired paint, or tired engine, or tired chassis

4) Original good, smart paint, decent chassis, tidy interior, recent bills for engine work and chassis components. Reliable and useable

5) Original Freshly overhauled and painted with photo evidence

What do other Owners of Plus 2 think ??
What prices do you think the categories should be ??
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PostPost by: alanr » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:28 am

I think generally you have your categories about right.... :D .
Values and prices are another thing though and a car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In other words it is subjective. One person may like a sunroof and value it and another may think it detracts from its value and so on with a particular cars various features.

However on a separate point a +2 no longer needs an MOT so why go through the burden of having one? It is now classed as a vintage vehicle and is exempt from an MOT.

Alan.
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PostPost by: JonB » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:05 pm

Re MoTs. Pretty obvious why a seller should get one. It provides some piece of mind to a buyer (even if illusory, as it was in the case of my car when I bought it). Other than that, a pretty worthless piece of paper.
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PostPost by: alanr » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:29 pm

I would suggest that if a buyer needs an MOT certificate to convince himself of a +2's condition and that a certain car is for him then he shouldn't be buying it!
Mine definitely won't be having an MOT now that the DVLA have said that it is exempt. :D

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PostPost by: gherlt » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:21 pm

There is a company called Classic Data, I think its German but not sure.
They have a very good and accepted description of conditions, from 1 (perfect) to 5 (basket case/wreck)
Somewhere I have also the pictures that illustrate their description, but not able to find it.
from this page:
https://www.classic-data.de/ueber-class ... andsnoten/
translated:

Condition 1
Perfect condition. No defects, damages or signs of use on the technology and the optics. Completely and perfectly restored top-class vehicle. Like new (or better*). Very rare.

A vehicle that one approaches enthusiastically and where no defects are found even after close inspection. The basis for the evaluation in condition grade 1 is the assumed condition at first delivery, i.e. the former new car condition of the respective manufacturer.

(I would add that a car that is driven for some miles passes inmediately from "1" to "1-")

Condition 2

Good condition. Free of defects, but with slight (!) traces of use. Either rare, good unrestored original condition or professionally restored. Technically and optically perfect with slight signs of wear.

A vehicle which is enthusiastically approached, but on closer inspection shows slight signs of use. These slight signs of use should be reflected in the comprehensible, low overall mileage or mileage after restoration. The degree of wear and tear of the technology is correspondingly low.

Condition 3

Used condition. Vehicles without major technical and optical defects, fully roadworthy and roadworthy. No rusting through. No immediate work necessary.

A vehicle you approach and on closer inspection you will easily see traces of use and various minor defects. The traces of use and defects should be reflected in the comprehensible total mileage or mileage after a restoration. The degree of wear and tear of the technology is corresponding to this.

Condition 4

Used condition. Only limited roadworthiness. Immediate work for successful acceptance to MOT is necessary. Light to medium rusting through. Vehicle complete, in individual assembly groups but not necessarily undamaged.

A vehicle that is approached and where various defects are visible from a distance. A closer inspection shows clear signs of wear

Condition 5

Condition in need of restoration. Vehicles in a defective, unroadworthy overall condition. Extensive work required in all assemblies. Vehicle not necessarily complete.

A vehicle in which even the layman immediately recognizes clear defects and/or missing parts. Could also be used as a parts carrier.
1964 S1 (engine ready, awainting body paint)
1967 S3 DHC (now adjusted by Brian Buckland, totally calm idle)
1969 S4 FHC (final interior stuff)
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PostPost by: JimE » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:30 pm

My +2 is valued by Alan Morgan in the mid thirties as a starter for 10. Jim
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PostPost by: kwhittle » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:36 pm

very nice too !
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PostPost by: pptom » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:38 pm

I narrowly missed out on a Weber head twin cam engine on eBay about 2 months ago. It sold for around £2100. Looked in good condition, no ancillaries. I think someone had kept it as a spare
It's pretty rare that they come up with bids only, which I think gives a true value. Usually advertised as a fixed price much higher.
On the other hand, if someone offered me some rear calipers for £100 I'd bite their hand off.
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:57 pm

here in N America. All elans are much cheaper.
I purchased mine, in what I would consider condition #2 for what would be £2,500
And about the same for my baby, which required alot.

I pay attention to other marques, both sides of the atlantic. Until you get into very high dollar cars, Europe is always higher in price.

For an elan, or +2. They are undervalued by about 15-20,000%
More based on any american car/truck value, also on how many of the marques remain.

There was a thread here a while back, about building an elan from scratch.

Are the molds still around for the +2
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PostPost by: kwhittle » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:15 pm

It's still possible to buy a new +2 body
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:14 pm

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-datsun-240z-124/

If one of these can fetch $310,000

There were about 13,000 built per year. Far more than elans over the 12<> years
And, if anyone were to consider the fun factor of each.
Last edited by h20hamelan on Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: alanr » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:29 pm

h20hamelan wrote:https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-datsun-240z-124/

If one of these can fetch $310,000

There were about 13,000 built. Far more than elans
And, if anyone were to consider the fun factor of each.


I would agree that a 240Z is great fun to drive and very easy to work on having personally worked on a few in the past... But boy do they rust!!...Nothing disolves faster than an old Datsun, at least in the UK. I personally wouldn't touch one with a barge pole for that reason alone!

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PostPost by: Slowtus » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:20 pm

If/when I buy another Plus 2 I want to pay as little as is I deem 'reasonable'

If/when I sell another Plus 2 I want as much money for it as I deem reasonable.

But...the market will set the price - and whether we agree with where that price is - is almost irrelevant.

"Setting prices" is a bit like duct-taping jelly to a tree (much better idea than nailing jelly to a tree), it can be done but...

edited to add emphasis as needed.
Last edited by Slowtus on Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPost by: Chrispy » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:37 am

Another thing to consider is the awareness of what a Plus 2 is. I never knew it even existed until I saw one at an auction (and then bought it). I consider myself a car enthusiast and like to think I know of most cars from Europe that they built a few thousand of after 1960. Everyone knows a E-Type, or a Esprit or a DB5. Same can't be said for the Plus 2 in a lot of places.
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PostPost by: alanr » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:01 am

You could have the worlds greatest authority on classic cars or Lotus place a value or price on a particular +2 but it means absolutely nothing! The market will always dictate the final price what you can in the real world sell or buy it for, this will always be its only real and true value.You can't fix the market!
Trying to determine and obtain a price/value that reflects and is in line with your own personal satisfaction whether you are buying or selling is the real trick!

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