Lotus Elan

Plus 2 or Plus 2S

PostPost by: LotusArchives » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:33 pm

The red +2'S' with engine number F21567 being fitted in the film was signed from production 02/01/70 (proper signed from production, not sale date) so as the engine was being fitted in the film, it was likely to be filmed in December 1969 and aired in 1970.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:46 pm

ahh ok that explains allot, i thought the screw in lights were an option. Maybe the car was assembled before they changed the moulding.

Thought i'd seen the white one before http://www.flickriver.com/photos/trigge ... elan+%2B2/

Thanks.
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PostPost by: Orsom Weels » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:02 pm

Elanintheforest wrote:
gus wrote:>>>>So the only anomaly seems to be that this car, built in October '69, passed to sales a few months later, was well inside the 'S' model having been announced in Mar '69. But it's specification looks good for an original non-S built between Sep '68 and Mar '69<<<

Fer cryin out loud, the introduction of the +2 S was NOT the end of non S +2 production, which went on until 12/69
I don't believe there are any new VIN non S +2's

There is no anomoly


Well Gus you're going to have to cry out just a little bit louder. Where do you get the information from about there being two models of domestic +2 Elans being made between March '69 and December '69? I think I have all the brochures, pricelists and write-ups from the time, and can only find one model for sale at a time. Just look at the price list put up above by Grizzly from Sep '69. Only the 'S' is mentioned; there is no reduced price 'non-S' available. I'm always keen to learn, and have learned to keep an open mind about Lotus Cars!

I've never seen the 'S' being marketed as an upgrade or optional extra either, which surely it must have been if offered at the same time. I'm looking forward to seeing the brochure price list or write-up with both cars being described. I'm always keen to learn!

Mark


As 'S' model production started March 69 at chassis # 1554, & the last non 'S' basic +2 was in December 69 at chassis # 2407, that would certainly suggest that both models were built & offered beside each other, wouldn't it?
FWIW, my first +2 was an April 69 registered (G suffix) +2 S, with all the 'S' spec, at the same time, a Friends dad had a std basic +2 with straight exhaust & no external boot lock, it was February 70 registered with an H suffix, but he had bought it new as a kit in January 70 & it took him the month to complete the build & register it.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:11 pm

This is interesting, just been searching for some thing else and this popped up on Google.

So 68
s-l1600.jpg and


69
img_0003.jpg
img_0003.jpg (95.3 KiB) Viewed 442 times



So were all the +2 from 67-69 called S/E or was it a package like the 2 seater elan below?

s-l1600-1.jpg and



One last question, did Lotus Retrofit any +2 to +2s ?
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PostPost by: Sea Ranch » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:47 pm

Thanks for sharing those, Chris :mrgreen:

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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:52 pm

In the domestic market I've only ever seen one model before the 'S', and that was referred to as the +2 or S/E. All the pre-130 cars had the S/E engine, and there were no other S/E options that I know of, as there were with the 2 seat cars.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:21 am

Mark, I just found it odd that the 67 sales brochure had not mention of S/E http://www.lotuselan.net/wiki/1967_Elan ... n_Brochure

But then there is this......
elan-2-special-equipment.jpg
elan-2-special-equipment.jpg (83.67 KiB) Viewed 403 times


As LotusArchives said S/E was the factory abbreviation for the Non Federal +2, so technically the Domestic Pre s would be called the +2 S/E by the factory hence the leaflet above?

LotusArchives wrote:In 1969 there were 3 models being manufactured that I am aware of;
S/E (noted as special equipment in the build file - standard version),
E/E (emission equipment model for the US),
S ('S' upmaket factory built version with plusher trim).


Forget the badge bit, thinking back all the cars i saw it on were restored so i suspect the Constructors Championship badges at the time must have been hard to get hold of and i suspect the pins on the back must be similar to the S4 S/E badge.
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PostPost by: AdrianSi » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:42 am

You're assuming there that S/E applies to the Non S Federal cars only... but remember what the federal version is, the same car as the non S standard (S/E) +2 but LHD with emissions equipment.

All +2s are Special/Equipment engined cars or 130's when they were introduced. Special/Equipment was the base level car, the first introduced variant of the +2.

You're really over complicating things here and even more so by trying to align cut off dates of the different variants. Lotus wasn't exactly your conventional vehicle manufacturer proven by how long it took for cars to get from build date to the dealers, and the fact that you could purchase as kits.
1970 Elan +2
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B42 Midnight Blue (Esprit S4)
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PostPost by: carrierdave » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:12 pm

Just a quick question - were the federal cars supplied with fail safe head lights, as the blue cars lights are up.
Also, the red car has the same plastic inserts behind the driving/spot lights as my car, rather than the solid fibreglass moulded in type. My car was assembled in 1969 and sold in 70 and is an S.

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PostPost by: AdrianSi » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:16 pm

My Federal converted car has 'Failsafe' lamps fitted. Original? Who knows, but was built around the era of the change over. I was under the impression that the Failsafe lamps were a US requirement, sure I've read it somewhere....could still be hearsay.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:10 pm

AdrianSi wrote:You're assuming there that S/E applies to the Non S Federal cars only... but remember what the federal version is, the same car as the non S standard (S/E) +2 but LHD with emissions equipment.

All +2s are Special/Equipment engined cars or 130's when they were introduced. Special/Equipment was the base level car, the first introduced variant of the +2.

You're really over complicating things here and even more so by trying to align cut off dates of the different variants. Lotus wasn't exactly your conventional vehicle manufacturer proven by how long it took for cars to get from build date to the dealers, and the fact that you could purchase as kits.

No i'm only going of what Andy said

LotusArchives wrote:In 1969 there were 3 models being manufactured that I am aware of;
S/E (noted as special equipment in the build file - standard version),
E/E (emission equipment model for the US),
S ('S' upmaket factory built version with plusher trim).


We know you have a E/E Federal export car converted back by the factory as U.S. sales where down. It's not the S/E Engine from the S4 (thats different) it seems the S/E was just what the Domestic market +2 was called by the factory. The thing that confused me was when the bodies where modified in 68 they where called "Federal Spec Bodies" which doesn't necessarily mean the Domestic Uk cars ever had any intention of going abroad.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:15 pm

carrierdave wrote:Just a quick question - were the federal cars supplied with fail safe head lights, as the blue cars lights are up.
Also, the red car has the same plastic inserts behind the driving/spot lights as my car, rather than the solid fibreglass moulded in type. My car was assembled in 1969 and sold in 70 and is an S.

Dave

Federal cars (built to be shipped to the US) all had Federal safety UP sprung headlights yes (was part of the Federal rules they had to comply with according the Andy they were E/E cars) they also didn't have three ear spinners (Federal hex head spinners).

That said the UK cars did get up-sprung headlights on the S130 a bit down the line..... but if you watch that video back you can see all the Export cars with the headlights up. (not sure about the ones outside as obviously the lights would be down if they had been running)

If you notice the White S at the end had screw in Spot/Fog lights too (must have been how they did it until they altered the moulds).

Regarding Fog/Spot lights...... Why did they use one of each? I thought i was loosing the plot when i noticed it on my S130, i was just about to change them when i noticed thats how they where supposed to be.
Last edited by Grizzly on Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: gus » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:25 pm

<<<
Well Gus you're going to have to cry out just a little bit louder. Where do you get the information from about there being two models of domestic +2 Elans being made between March '69 and December '69?

<<
What are you talking about?

The OP is one
Another was posted as late[2407 was it]
read the shop manual, I believe you will find wiring diagrams for such

I trust cars on the ground not old sales brochures, by March of 69 they would have been prepared for the end of non S production [9 months hence]

I can only speak directly on US cars, but they were absolutely produced side by side, I own one.

Early +2:
transverse exhaust, toggle switches, early door handles, webers, 4 small gauges, a few early with different tail lights, Ends mid 68

+2
straight exhaust updated door handles still webers and toggles Ends 12/69

Federal
as +2 with rocker switches, strombergs, dual braking, headrests Ends 12/69

S
6 small gauges, rocker switches , padded console, perf headliner, fog lights, contoured rear seatback

Fed S
as above with Strombergs, dual braking, etc

Late Fed S
Glue in windshield, evap fuel tank

.............................................

those are the variations I am familiar with, that would account for body or dash or significant part changes that would be important to know when buying a car.

there are the X number of cars converted from Fed to UK

there are at least 3 steering wheels, vinyl, leather, black, 2 horn pushes, 2 radiators, SOVY etc etc

there are no doubt some other minor variations[were there non Fed stromberg cars, why?]

there are likely some inexplicable variations due to them being low production, but coming up on 50 years down the road, saying 'my car is different' is a bit silly, unless you have firm pictorial evidence of it having left the factory that way.

I don't know why they made toggle switch cars as long as they did, maybe toggles were a ton cheaper, or maybe Brits preferred the look.

One can walk up to a fairly unmolested car and know in a minute what it is. Throwing fog lights on is not very confusing. If I saw a car with 6 small gauges and a plastic console, I would assume it was a dash replacement as that is somewhat common over here, due to 4 gauge dashes being unavailable.

I see little mystery, really

Grizzly, other than the explainable 68/69 model difference I don't see what you are maintaining is 'different'
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:32 pm

Uk Market........ 67 +2 car is different to the late 69 +2 car..... we agree that.

gus wrote:Grizzly, other than the explainable 68/69 model difference I don't see what you are maintaining is 'different'


So apart from there different!!!! you don't see why i think there Different??????? Ok

Just trying to figure if your trying to wind me up or being serious now??
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PostPost by: Orsom Weels » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:21 pm

Grizzly wrote: Fog/Spot lights...... Why did they use one of each? I thought i was loosing the plot when i noticed it on my S130, i was just about to change them when i noticed thats how they where supposed to be.


My old 'S' had one of each, switched individually by two white rocker switches located in the lower dash crash pad, right of the steering wheel, items 47 & 48 here, http://images.lotuselan.net/lel/38393/0/image.jpg
To me, this was logical, if a bit of a strange idea. My current 'S130' came with one of each, but switched together by the one rocker switch in the dash, labelled "FOG", next to the side/headlight switch. This made no sense to me at all, as you don't want a bloody driving light dazzling you in the fog, might aswell use main beam :? Like you, I thought at first this must be a PO's doing, so changed the spot for a fog, to make a pair of fog lights, then found out that no, that's how it would have left the factory. I still have the original spot light in the cupboard, but have stuck with the pair of fogs, for me, much more logical & useful. :)
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