Sypder Conversion

[jono]

Hi,

My first post on here.

Just obtained a Plus 2 for restoration. Usual story, the last owner started it 13 years ago and had the shell stripped bare and repainted (paint still good except some stress cracks showing though in places). Doors etc are all in bubble wrap and repainted with glass out etc.

So, the body is essentially very good but I need to decide whether to attend to the minor areas of cracking or just live with them.

The body shell has been put on a Sypder spaceframe chassis of 1989 vintage which is in immaculate/as new condition. Suspension has been re bushed new Koni's all around etc. So basically a good rolling shell which has not turned a wheel since being built 13 years ago.

The Lotus twin cam was rebuilt and blueprinted by QED 10k miles before going off the road however I have no proof of this other than the word of the previous owner whom I know and trust. It looks to be in excellent condition but would need rings, glaze bust etc as a prudent measure prior to recommissioning.

Now then, I am seriously thinking about going down the Spyder zetec route (some will regard this as heresy ) as I want to be able to use the car everday. I contacted Spyder who were adamant that the std Spyder chassis cannot be converted to accept the zetec conversion which surprised me as I had heard it could.

Anyway assuming it can't be used what can I expect to recoup on the existing running gear as decsribed above, ie engine, gearbox, diff, Spyder chassis, suspension brakes etc?

Also is anyone on here running a Spyder Zetec and what are your views on this conversion?

Cheers

[fitzy1]

Hi Jono

I built a spyder zetec and I love it, use it as a regular car.
The support I got from spyder was fantastic and I've since added a few mods.
Like you I started with a dog of a car, I sold off the rolling chassis (Old spyder like yours) and running gear together with a big valve engine of unknown quality for about ?1400. Enjoyed the build enormously.
If you want to see the car I'm midlands based

fitzy

[Elanintheforest]

There's good news and bad news...first the bad.

There are no end of Plus 2s that appear on ebay as stalled projects or breaking for spares with recent new chassis / suspension etc. You bought yours after all! The whole car sells for something between ?2000 and ?3000, depending on where they are and how well the work has been done. If the chassis has been drilled to bolt onto the body, then it won't be worth much, but if it's still as new, then a fair bit more. If the suspension has been powder coated with new bushes, and the brake overhauled / replated by someone who knows what they are doing with supporting receipts, then it will realise a fair bit. If a bit of hammerite has been slapped on to old rusty componenets and new seals fitted to the calipers, poeple recognise that up to ?40 has been spent on the 'refurbishment' and pay very little for it. So I guess that a rolling 'new' chassis will be something between ?400 and ?1500, depending on condition and what's been done.

And for the good news, the twincam engine will always sell well, and folks seem to be willing to pay a lot of dosh for the average boat anchor. It's a pity that the receipts have been lost for work done...everyone likes to claim a QED engine (they must have turned out a lot!), but even still it would probably sell for ?1500 with all the bits. If it had receipts, and photos of the engine with the head off and head thickness, valve seat sinkage given, it could fetch double that ot more. So you could get ?2000, maybe ?2500 for the bits you don't want. Gearboxes are ?100, as are the diffs.

The good news continues. An original Plus 2 can be made to be totally reliable, as they were for the first few years of their life...if built and maintained properly.

To start all over with the Zetec approach is going to cost somewhere in the region of ?10,000 if you do most of the work yourself. It's not just the engine, gearbox, diff, suspension and brakes you'll have to sort out, but also the fuel tank, the petrol pump and wiring and the ECU and wiring and of course the cooling system. Zetec engines and Type 9 gearboxes are cheap to buy, but like your twincam, you wouldn't want to put them in without overhauling them...and a Zetec costs as much as a Twincam to overhaul, maybe more if it needs valve work.

The loom on the original Elan is fine if you don't start to overload it, and adding electrical goodies like the ECU and pump requires a fair bit of wiring beef up to cope with the extra load..relays, fuses and thicker cables. All do-able of course, but it all takes time and ???.

Do all this, and do it properly, and you'll have a fast reliable Plus 2.

It sounds like your car is currently a few weeks away from being completed...it may be better to do that, sell it on, and build up a Zetec with the proceeds.
Mark

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Hi,

I would suggest that you do replace all of the suspension bushes if they have stood around for so long.
If you want to go the whole Spyder conversion route with Sierra Diff' MT75 G/box then the statement from them is correct.
The back end of the chassis must be converted to take the new diff' and 2 of the diagonal tubes in the frame where it splits into a vee at the front must be replaced with oval tubes.
Also the front end of the box section must be opened out to accept the fatter G/box.
If you plan just to fit a Zetec engine then all you will need to do (to the chassis ) is to provide a half moon cutout in the cross member (vacuum tank) to provide space for the Zetec front pulley/vibration damper.
Beware this is just the begining. If your Twincam is good stick with it unless you want a lot of work and expense.
I did one of the very first conversions Zetec into Elan (not +2)

All the best & welcome.
John

[Elanintheforest]

When John talks about a lot of time and expense, that?s from the perspective of an Engineer, not just an enthusiastic amateur like most of the rest of us!
Just have a look at his engine bay?a joy. But how many hours went into this John, and over what sort of time period?
Mark

[kenny]

I agree with a lot of the advice re. the pricing of parts etc. but would also add that in my humble opinion +2 prices have shifted over the last year or so.

I don't believe that a nice easy project can now easily be found in the 2-3k price bracket.
The recent ones I've looked at in this bracket with "new chassis" have in fact chassis of 7-8 years old and bodywork that needs fully and utterly revamping.....this is the serious money on a +2 rebuild hence the price.

My car was bought in a similar state to the original posters. i.e. nicely painted shell (which is unusual) brand new (but Lotus galv) chassis with reciepts and a whole lot of new bits some fitted and some not.

As a first time +2 owner the mistake I made was to take the vendor at his word that the car was 95% complete (parts wise).it wasn't and this is what has cost me. Also the rebuilt engine had been "rebuilt" alright, but by a master butcher
I did the sums re breaking but then realised the phenomenom that if a tatty +2 has an MOT it fetches 5k even on Ebay, no MOT and it's a breaker, I've been to see cars that have sold for 6k plus and they were far from nice.

My advice would be first to check you have all of the bits to complete, if bits are missing source them or price them up now(that was my failing)
Get the car running and with a nice paint job, recent chassis and strong engine will be worth 7k min.............I think it's a no brainer in my experience. you will make money if you complete the car providing it's all there.

Kenny

PS PM me if you want to compare notes

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

In reply to Mark's posting.
The conversion of a +2 to Spyder Zetec has been made easier due to so many parts being available "off the shelf" from them.
However their & my comments on your present chassis should be born in mind.
My conversion did take some years but in those days I was working from a nearly blank sheet of paper
My costs were kept down by using the facilities of my employers & help from contacts within "the trade"
All is not done by fitting a Zetec, you have an engine with a lot of bottom end grunt which will put the drive shafts through their paces.
Spyder fit Sierra hubs front & rear which includes vented disk brakes at the front. I'm fairly happy with the added +2 front brakes but am considering using 4 pot calipers & even bigger disks (14" Wheels).
These cars go very fast & need to stop equally so to maintain the fun factor without stained underpants.

As far as costs, well 2 off 40DCOE's are going to cost over ?600, fuel injection & engine management about ?2k.
Exhaust, cooling, fuel & electrial systems also need to be adressed & don't forget all of the little bits that really add up; so you can see how the money adds up.

Errm Mark, ta very much. Is it OK if I pay your fees towards the end of the year

Cheers
John

[jono]

Cheers for all your comments guys.

I also have a Caterham and in the L7C monthly magazine, Low Flying, Raceline advertise a brand new Zetec with TB's and engine management for around ?2.5k.

I am guessing it might cost me at least 1,500 to properly freshen up and recommissiong my Lotus TC engine and that's without going unleaded. That that will leave me with a modestly powered engine (okay power is not everything the Westie XI proves that ) which will need looking after and I do like a bit of grunt in my cars

It all seems to stack up to me

[mikealdren]

Jono,
It's a long way to Spyder from Cumbria but if you make the trip, Andy will be able to give you full details of what's required to put a Zetec in your car. At least take a look at the practical classics articles on the Spyder website.

Many threads on this forum talk about the costs and the pros and cons of originality but the amount of work required tends to get overlooked.

I'm one of several currently building Zetec +2s and it's certainly a lot of work, not just the engine! If you are going to do it properly, you need to look at all the running gear and suspension. Even rewiring from scratch is a big job.

If you treat it as a project, it's great fun but keeping the car original is much easier.

Mike