DVLA Questioning Provenance

[Spyder fan]

I don't think that it's a worry for most Elan owners, standard or Spyder. But a 26R that has suddenly appeared from nowhere may have to be properly authenticated, with evidence of the 'before' and 'during' restoration!

Mark

I totally agree with Mark here, all of the Spyder converted cars use an original Elan or +2 as the "donor" vehicle and the only notifiable change to the original is the engine.

I have a reasonable amount of experience re-registering Elans that were stored off the road before SORN became compulsory, with the help of Club Lotus and Andy Graham the Lotus archivist, the procedure is relatively straightforward and there is no doubt about provenance if done correctly so therefore no letters from the DVLA.

My pal Don Hands registered his S2 with an age related registration just 2 years ago, the car in question had never been registered for the road having lived its first life as a competition car.

[Chancer]

I have a reasonable amount of experience re-registering Elans that were stored off the road before SORN became compulsory, with the help of Club Lotus and Andy Graham the Lotus archivist, the procedure is relatively straightforward and there is no doubt about provenance if done correctly so therefore no letters from the DVLA.

My Elan is registered in my name and I did this before the advent of SORN, it was off the road then and remains so to this day and I benefit from not being bothered with SORN every year.

I have a Caterham that I registered some while later, it was on the road and taxed until I moved here to France 10 years ago, a few years back the DVLA sent me a new V5 in a different colour saying they were being changed because of a theft, I did not recieve one for the Elan which seems sensible. I get reminders and have to SORN the Caterham every year.

Will I have any problems when I finally come to retax, reregister (in France) or sell the Elan?

[Spyder fan]

I assume that you still maintain a UK address for correspondence, hence your SORN reminders?
If so, you would only need to contact the DVLA and request a new V5C for the Elan so that you have the most up to date paperwork to present to the French beurocrats. All vehicles that were taxed or sorned at the time of the blue document theft were issued with a red V5c, but all owners are "encouraged" even now to get their paperwork swapped if it hasn't already happened.

Make sure your taxation class is Historic Vehicle, if not get it changed at the same time to be sure of having the right codes on the document for the French Beurocrats

I believe that the SORN system is/has changed so that you only have to declare it once and then cancel it as and when the vehicle is put back on the road, so no bad reason not to get all the paperwork straight.

[Chancer]

I had also heard that that was going to happen but it seemed too much like common sense to be true then my neighbour in the UK who looks after things for me said that he had to SORN the Caterham again so I assumed that I was misinformed.

Its been more than a year so maybe the system has now evolved, can anyone confirm?

You make a good point, it was not wanting double the grief of SORN that made me want to keep the Elan as it was, having the tax class as historic vehicle will definitely help with a registration over here, can I change the taxation class without it being on the road and/or taxed? How would I go about that?

[elanfan1]

The car will need to have an MOT before you can do that I believe.

[billwill]

Redoing SORN each year was/is not much bother anyway. You get a magic number by post, go to the DVLA website relevant pages, type in the number & press submit. { or some procedure very similar}.

Bang.. all done, easier than posting a message on this forum.

[Chancer]

Not when you are 200 miles from the letterbox!!

MOT no problem, I have the last one from 1980

Can anyone confirm that the SORN procedure has changed to a once only thing?

My neighbour had been taking the form to the post office to get it stamped every year.

[elanfan1]

Confirmed here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dvla ... -motorists

[Chancer]

Thankyou for the confirmation, one tiny bit less hassle in life.

[jimj]

I`m guessing the DVLA are only after the naughty boys who are misrepresenting. It used to be, maybe still is, that if you built up a car, only from certified brand new bits could it have a current registration, and then it would have to meet current regulations such as an SVA. You could easily build a brand new Lotus 7 out of available parts for less than the cost of a real one and, theoretically, register it as a new car, only it wouldn`t pass the SVA.
I don`t know if it`s changed now but where you used a donor car you had to, I think, use 2 out of 3 major mechanical components to keep the original registration. The 3 components being back axle, engine or chassis, as I recall, otherwise, to avoid misrepresentation, the car had to have a "Q" plate.
I don`t know how Spyder get around this, probably by not asking the question.
Jim

[Spyder fan]

I`m guessing the DVLA are only after the naughty boys who are misrepresenting. It used to be, maybe still is, that if you built up a car, only from certified brand new bits could it have a current registration, and then it would have to meet current regulations such as an SVA. You could easily build a brand new Lotus 7 out of available parts for less than the cost of a real one and, theoretically, register it as a new car, only it wouldn`t pass the SVA.
I don`t know if it`s changed now but where you used a donor car you had to, I think, use 2 out of 3 major mechanical components to keep the original registration. The 3 components being back axle, engine or chassis, as I recall, otherwise, to avoid misrepresentation, the car had to have a "Q" plate.
I don`t know how Spyder get around this, probably by not asking the question.
Jim

Contrary to certain opinions expressed on here, the Spyder conversion is not a kit car, therefore the rules regarding using a donor vehicle to create a new totally different style or class of vehicle do not apply. All of the items replaced are dimensionally identical and attach at the same position, the only item that requires notification is the engine as already stated.

[jimj]

This came from Heritage today;

Having researched Government Legislation on this matter it appears through all the bureaucracy there are three possible options if you are restoring or altering a classic car.

Option 1- Rebuilt Vehicles: there?s no mention on line as to whether this applies to classic, vintage or modern cars (although all three definitions can be open to interpretation) it does say however a rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you?ve used:
?The original unmodified chassis or body-shell
?A new chassis or monocoque body-shell of the ?same specification? as the original

You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle on the following list:
?Suspension (front and Back)
?Steering assembly
?Axles (both)
?Transmission
?Engine

Option 2-Radically altered vehicles: these are vehicles (once again no classification) that have been altered from their original specification, but aren?t kit conversions.

Keeping thclassic care original registration number is based on a point system. The more original the vehicle the higher you score deeming your vehicle acceptable to maintain its age related plate. However you must have the original or new unmodified chassis and monocoque body-shell. 8 points or more allows you to keep your original plate.Take a look at the points system.
?Chassis, monocoque body shell original or new and unmodified ? 5 points
?Suspension (front and back) original ? 2 points
?Axles (both) original ? 2 points
?Transmission original ? 2 points
?Steering assembly original ? 2 points
?Engine original ? 1 point

Option 3- Reconstructed classic vehicles: the DVLA will only allocate an age-related plate if the vehicle meets the criteria below
?Built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle
?A true reflection of the marquee
?Has been inspected by the appropriate vehicle owners? club for the vehicle type (marque) and confirmed in writing it has been inspected, is a true reflection of the marque and comprises of genuine period components all over 25 years old
?Disclose manufacturer dates for all major components

The DVLA will then assign an age related plate but not necessarily for the original year, it will be based on the age of the youngest component used.

So as you can see it gets a little complicated to say the least.

So with the DVLA sending out letters randomly to classic car owners asking for justification that their vehicle deserves to keep its original plate, the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs have replied by saying ?this would seem to be an inappropriate use of public money? especially when you consider how unclear it is to rectify this matter based on their confusing guide lines. The Vintage Sports-Car Club are now involved as well and are fully aware of the potential implications for the historic car movement in the UK. A representation is intended to be made to the DVLA.

Find out more about our classic car insurance here.

[elanfan1]

Had a long chat with Kim Eaton of Routen Chaplin Insurance about this just yesterday. He is very worried about this situation and quoted a case of someone that rebodied a car that should have been worth about ?80K but because of the Q plate it only reached 20 odd thousand at auction (you'd be gutted wouldn't you?).

What is needed here is one of those online government petitions that needs 100,000 signatures to force a debate on the subject.If someone more eloquent than I were to start something it wouldn't take long for all the clubs, classic magazines and online forums to jump aboard.

The petition needs to address the issue of supporting the rules in some way to stop the fraudsters but that the rules are being interpreted in such a way as they are taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Taking the worst case scenario I'd bet up to 50% of classic cars could end up with a Q plate. Surely this was not the original intention and it must be costing a fortune to process all these revised plates.

A real point made by Kim was that our country supports many thousands of jobs in classic car part manufacturers, suppliers, garages, paint shops etc - all this too will be on the line if it becomes unworthwhile to restore a car.

The lunatics have taken over the asylum

[wotsisname]

Confirmed here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dvla ... -motorists

from the link above...

The Continuous Insurance Enforcement (CIE) scheme to tackle uninsured motorists was launched in June 2011. Under the scheme it is an offence to be the keeper of an uninsured vehicle. Information is cross checked between the Motor Insurance Database (MID) and DVLA keeper records.

Does anyone know what the situation is for stored vehicles that were off-road pre-SORN (mid 1980s) , or even have SORN declared... but have no valid insurance (ie "laid up" insurance) of any sort ? [in other words, is it exactly as stated above ?]

[Spyder fan]

Confirmed here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dvla ... -motorists

from the link above...

The Continuous Insurance Enforcement (CIE) scheme to tackle uninsured motorists was launched in June 2011. Under the scheme it is an offence to be the keeper of an uninsured vehicle. Information is cross checked between the Motor Insurance Database (MID) and DVLA keeper records.

Does anyone know what the situation is for stored vehicles that were off-road pre-SORN (mid 1980s) , or even have SORN declared... but have no valid insurance (ie "laid up" insurance) of any sort ? [in other words, is it exactly as stated above ?]

Government website states you don't have to insure a vehicle declared as SORN. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-insurance/uninsured-vehicles

If you have a vehicle that is off the road pre dating the SORN requirement, providing you don't actually use it on the road you don't have to insure it. Now that SORN is continuous until you say otherwise it makes sense to get your car properly SORNed as it will make it easier to prove the provenance they are going on about at the moment.