Russia
Post by: AshleyPark » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:47 pm
Hahaha, why am I not surprised in the slightest that you believe Russia blew up its own pipeline rather than the US, Rohan?
I’m sure you’ve read Seymour Hersh’s cogent indictment of America’s role in the bombing? For those who haven’t, it’s here:
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how ... paign=post
I don’t know, perhaps you believe the smear campaign against Hersh saying he’s a conspiracy theorist? But don’t forget he was a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist, who exposed many of the US’s worst war crimes like the My Lai massacre in Vietnam and the Abu Graibh prison atrocities.
Sure, the pipeline was destroyed after Russia entered Ukraine but the seeds were sown, publicly, beforehand. In early February 2022, Biden pledged during a joint news conference with German chancellor Olav Scholz that “If Russia invades, there will no longer be a Nord Stream 2” and, when pressed on how he would carry that out, he responded, “We will, I promise you, we will be able to do it.”
Investigations into the attack are being carried out by Denmark, Sweden and Germany and have already ascertained who was responsible but they are refusing to reveal their findings. Russia has now asked the UN to hold an independent inquiry but the US is trying to block it.
Now, I wonder why that would be??
What’s most worrying is that people are influenced in their belief that the Russkies did it, by such a compliant mainstream media! They’re being led to believe a cock and Bull story that Craig Murray, a former British Ambassador, describes as “quite literally incredible. You would have to be deranged to believe it”
Read his excellent analysis here:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... -live-now/
I’m sure you’ve read Seymour Hersh’s cogent indictment of America’s role in the bombing? For those who haven’t, it’s here:
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how ... paign=post
I don’t know, perhaps you believe the smear campaign against Hersh saying he’s a conspiracy theorist? But don’t forget he was a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist, who exposed many of the US’s worst war crimes like the My Lai massacre in Vietnam and the Abu Graibh prison atrocities.
Sure, the pipeline was destroyed after Russia entered Ukraine but the seeds were sown, publicly, beforehand. In early February 2022, Biden pledged during a joint news conference with German chancellor Olav Scholz that “If Russia invades, there will no longer be a Nord Stream 2” and, when pressed on how he would carry that out, he responded, “We will, I promise you, we will be able to do it.”
Investigations into the attack are being carried out by Denmark, Sweden and Germany and have already ascertained who was responsible but they are refusing to reveal their findings. Russia has now asked the UN to hold an independent inquiry but the US is trying to block it.
Now, I wonder why that would be??
What’s most worrying is that people are influenced in their belief that the Russkies did it, by such a compliant mainstream media! They’re being led to believe a cock and Bull story that Craig Murray, a former British Ambassador, describes as “quite literally incredible. You would have to be deranged to believe it”
Read his excellent analysis here:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... -live-now/
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Post by: Terry Posma » Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:35 pm
If the seppos did blow up Nordstream, good on them. What a stupid idea by Germany to rely on energy from an unstable bunch like the Russians.
Europe needs to ween their way off fossil fuel in any case and particularly Russian fossil fuels and this is a great way to do it. I expect the Ruskis thought what a great way to influence a senior members of the EU and NATO, send them cheap gas and play with the prices when you don't like what they are doing. Rip off the plaster, that stops the arguments.
Let the Russians supply China and then they can learn about how a customer can screw you when you are a smart arse. Getting into bed with the Chinese, I hope they are not expecting any sex.
I cannot believe you guys are arguing some of this stuff. You appear to have forgotten about the dead children, women and old people and the attempted destruction of a whole society. It should be a sign to you from the single mindedness in Ukraine that they want to be their own masters and not put up with this shit.
No one else is taking these losses, not Russia or NATO. This is about Ukraine. Grow up gentlemen.
Europe needs to ween their way off fossil fuel in any case and particularly Russian fossil fuels and this is a great way to do it. I expect the Ruskis thought what a great way to influence a senior members of the EU and NATO, send them cheap gas and play with the prices when you don't like what they are doing. Rip off the plaster, that stops the arguments.
Let the Russians supply China and then they can learn about how a customer can screw you when you are a smart arse. Getting into bed with the Chinese, I hope they are not expecting any sex.
I cannot believe you guys are arguing some of this stuff. You appear to have forgotten about the dead children, women and old people and the attempted destruction of a whole society. It should be a sign to you from the single mindedness in Ukraine that they want to be their own masters and not put up with this shit.
No one else is taking these losses, not Russia or NATO. This is about Ukraine. Grow up gentlemen.
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Post by: AshleyPark » Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:33 pm
I see Rupert Murdoch’s warmongering propaganda campaign is working nicely, it’s such a shame you don’t have a more balanced news ownership down there!
You are correct that Ukraine is taking the losses - on behalf of the benevolent West!
Sure, it started out as being something between Russia and its neighbour but if you can’t see that the US/Nato are now, de facto, at war with Russia and that the US attack on the NordStream pipeline was nothing less than an act of war, then I would suggest it’s you that needs to "grow up"!
You are correct that Ukraine is taking the losses - on behalf of the benevolent West!
Sure, it started out as being something between Russia and its neighbour but if you can’t see that the US/Nato are now, de facto, at war with Russia and that the US attack on the NordStream pipeline was nothing less than an act of war, then I would suggest it’s you that needs to "grow up"!
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Post by: Terry Posma » Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:55 pm
So if you go out to a pub for a quiet drink and a bunch of knuckle draggers start threatening you with a beating if you don't hand over your wallet are you going to refuse the help from your friends?
Ukraine are asking for assistance. They are fighting for their lives. I suggest you look very deeply into your heart and see if you have any compassion. I suspect not.
By the way Murdoch, much the same as in the US is railing against getting involved. I hate Rupert Murdoch he is a disgrace. I am happy he relinquished his Australian citizenship and is now a seppo. They can keep him and his trash.
Ukraine are asking for assistance. They are fighting for their lives. I suggest you look very deeply into your heart and see if you have any compassion. I suspect not.
By the way Murdoch, much the same as in the US is railing against getting involved. I hate Rupert Murdoch he is a disgrace. I am happy he relinquished his Australian citizenship and is now a seppo. They can keep him and his trash.
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Post by: john.p.clegg » Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:12 pm
Terry
I’m glad you raised that, I have just recently been watching some Russian documentaries (propaganda ) with bodies tied up ,shot in the head and left in the streets ( actors ) , not one or two but dozens , also the wanton mass destruction of civilian infrastructure , littered with innocents , ( probably staged for the media ) , at least in Turkey it was an act of God , not a madman .
Only last night I watched an interview with a high ranking Russian diplomat “ We are not going to give them Crimea back “ , Doesn’t that tell you something…. That they took it.
Please don’t rise to the bait and give the bleeding heart apologists/activists/anarchists the pleasure of shouting you down , their strategy is the same as those trying to re-write history….just keep banging on about it till everyone gives in…. then move on to the next keyboard war.
Sorry for my sarcasm but I am a little tired of certain contributors…
John
I’m glad you raised that, I have just recently been watching some Russian documentaries (propaganda ) with bodies tied up ,shot in the head and left in the streets ( actors ) , not one or two but dozens , also the wanton mass destruction of civilian infrastructure , littered with innocents , ( probably staged for the media ) , at least in Turkey it was an act of God , not a madman .
Only last night I watched an interview with a high ranking Russian diplomat “ We are not going to give them Crimea back “ , Doesn’t that tell you something…. That they took it.
Please don’t rise to the bait and give the bleeding heart apologists/activists/anarchists the pleasure of shouting you down , their strategy is the same as those trying to re-write history….just keep banging on about it till everyone gives in…. then move on to the next keyboard war.
Sorry for my sarcasm but I am a little tired of certain contributors…
John
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Post by: nomad » Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:59 pm
Here is one the hate Russia love the lies club will like. A chance to greatly expand this war!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sliXoMOBQfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sliXoMOBQfE
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Post by: AshleyPark » Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:25 pm
Nomad
I’ve been to Moldova and Transnistria. Moldova has a great wine industry and used to be where nearly all the wine in Russia came from. When Yuri Gagarin returned to earth after orbiting the earth, it’s said he visited the vast underground salt mines where the Cricova winery stored their wine. It was 3 days later before he reappeared!
Apart from that it’s a desperately poor country, the poorest in Europe and Transnistria is even poorer. As far as I was aware Moldovans are far closer to Romania than anyone else and Transnistria isn’t officially recognised by anyone, not even Russia.
I doubt whether Russia really cares much about Transnistria, apart from its strategic position, much less Moldova. However, that doesn't justify the kind of takeover being talked about here.
I’ve been to Moldova and Transnistria. Moldova has a great wine industry and used to be where nearly all the wine in Russia came from. When Yuri Gagarin returned to earth after orbiting the earth, it’s said he visited the vast underground salt mines where the Cricova winery stored their wine. It was 3 days later before he reappeared!
Apart from that it’s a desperately poor country, the poorest in Europe and Transnistria is even poorer. As far as I was aware Moldovans are far closer to Romania than anyone else and Transnistria isn’t officially recognised by anyone, not even Russia.
I doubt whether Russia really cares much about Transnistria, apart from its strategic position, much less Moldova. However, that doesn't justify the kind of takeover being talked about here.
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Post by: rgh0 » Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:35 am
"Hahaha, why am I not surprised in the slightest that you believe Russia blew up its own pipeline rather than the US, Rohan?
I’m sure you’ve read Seymour Hersh’s cogent indictment of America’s role in the bombing? For those who haven’t, it’s here:
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how ... paign=post"
You are putting words into my own mouth inaccurately.. I did not say I think Russia did it. I just said many countries could have done it including Russia and when you said Russia had no reason to do it I provided at least one possible reason.
There is no no evidence on who did it and the Hersh article provides no evidence and is largely based on the fact that the USA and Norway had the means to do it and some reasons to do it, which they obviously have. Australia also has the means to do it also as our Navy clearance divers are among the best in the world, we also have a reason to do it as this would increase gas prices and increase the value of Australian LNG exports ( we are the largest or second largest exporter in the world depending on how much we ship versus Qatar). However I think its unlikely we did it.
In the end though regardless of who blew it up it is not relevant to an earlier Russian invasion of a soveriegn country .
I am still looking for reasoned logic from the anti West / pro Russian supporters that can justify an invasion of Ukraine by Russia in todays world apart from the Russian excuse that it is Russias god given right to reclaim its former empire
I’m sure you’ve read Seymour Hersh’s cogent indictment of America’s role in the bombing? For those who haven’t, it’s here:
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how ... paign=post"
You are putting words into my own mouth inaccurately.. I did not say I think Russia did it. I just said many countries could have done it including Russia and when you said Russia had no reason to do it I provided at least one possible reason.
There is no no evidence on who did it and the Hersh article provides no evidence and is largely based on the fact that the USA and Norway had the means to do it and some reasons to do it, which they obviously have. Australia also has the means to do it also as our Navy clearance divers are among the best in the world, we also have a reason to do it as this would increase gas prices and increase the value of Australian LNG exports ( we are the largest or second largest exporter in the world depending on how much we ship versus Qatar). However I think its unlikely we did it.
In the end though regardless of who blew it up it is not relevant to an earlier Russian invasion of a soveriegn country .
I am still looking for reasoned logic from the anti West / pro Russian supporters that can justify an invasion of Ukraine by Russia in todays world apart from the Russian excuse that it is Russias god given right to reclaim its former empire
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Post by: john.p.clegg » Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:24 am
Can't see Lotuselan.net on there?
On 2 March, the UN General Assembly adopted — by an overwhelming majority of 141 against 5 — a resolution rejecting the Russian Federation's brutal invasion of Ukraine and demanding that Russia immediately withdraw its forces and abide by international law.
The resolution was prepared by the European Union hand in hand with Ukraine and countries from all regions of the world, immediately after the UN Security Council was prevented to act by a Russian veto on 25 February.
The resolution “deplores in the strongest terms” the aggression by Russia and affirms the international community’s commitment to the sovereignty, independence, unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine. It also calls for unimpeded access for humanitarian assistance. The text was approved by 141 countries. Only 5 UN member states voted against it: Russia, Belarus, DPRK (North Korea), Eritrea and Syria. Many of Russia’s closest partners did not follow their voting pattern.
Upon the successful adoption of the resolution, EU Ambassador to the UN in New York Olof Skoog stressed the historic nature of this vote:
“The world has spoken. The Russian government must immediately stop the aggression, withdraw its troops, and abide by the rules of the UN Charter that apply to all, equally.”
”This is not just about Ukraine, he continued. This is not just about Europe. This is about defending an international order based on rules we all have signed up to, and the sovereign equality of all states, large and small. This is about whether we choose tanks and missiles, or dialogue and diplomacy.”
He further noted, “Russia’s isolation from the rest of the international community”. “By voting overwhelmingly in favour of the resolution, we have chosen to defend peace where Russia has chosen brutal aggression. We have chosen to defend this organisation and its Charter where Russia has violated the fundamentals of both. Russia stands increasingly alone."
Following the General Assembly vote, Ambassador Skoog joined Ambassador of Ukraine Sergiy Kyslytsya, to further underline how “the European Union and the world stand with the Ukrainian people”.
John
On 2 March, the UN General Assembly adopted — by an overwhelming majority of 141 against 5 — a resolution rejecting the Russian Federation's brutal invasion of Ukraine and demanding that Russia immediately withdraw its forces and abide by international law.
The resolution was prepared by the European Union hand in hand with Ukraine and countries from all regions of the world, immediately after the UN Security Council was prevented to act by a Russian veto on 25 February.
The resolution “deplores in the strongest terms” the aggression by Russia and affirms the international community’s commitment to the sovereignty, independence, unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine. It also calls for unimpeded access for humanitarian assistance. The text was approved by 141 countries. Only 5 UN member states voted against it: Russia, Belarus, DPRK (North Korea), Eritrea and Syria. Many of Russia’s closest partners did not follow their voting pattern.
Upon the successful adoption of the resolution, EU Ambassador to the UN in New York Olof Skoog stressed the historic nature of this vote:
“The world has spoken. The Russian government must immediately stop the aggression, withdraw its troops, and abide by the rules of the UN Charter that apply to all, equally.”
”This is not just about Ukraine, he continued. This is not just about Europe. This is about defending an international order based on rules we all have signed up to, and the sovereign equality of all states, large and small. This is about whether we choose tanks and missiles, or dialogue and diplomacy.”
He further noted, “Russia’s isolation from the rest of the international community”. “By voting overwhelmingly in favour of the resolution, we have chosen to defend peace where Russia has chosen brutal aggression. We have chosen to defend this organisation and its Charter where Russia has violated the fundamentals of both. Russia stands increasingly alone."
Following the General Assembly vote, Ambassador Skoog joined Ambassador of Ukraine Sergiy Kyslytsya, to further underline how “the European Union and the world stand with the Ukrainian people”.
John
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Post by: rgh0 » Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:54 am
Appears to me there are 39 countries who dont recognise the treaty they signed when they joined the UN.
I know international geopolitics dont work this way ... but 2 questions
1. Why should they not be expelled from the UN and in particulalr Russia from the security council at least
2. Why should any country not invade them if it feels like it since they themselves do not recognise other countries borders
I know international geopolitics dont work this way ... but 2 questions
1. Why should they not be expelled from the UN and in particulalr Russia from the security council at least
2. Why should any country not invade them if it feels like it since they themselves do not recognise other countries borders
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Post by: UAB807F » Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:14 am
rgh0 wrote:Appears to me there are 39 countries who dont recognise the treaty they signed when they joined the UN.
I know international geopolitics dont work this way ... but 2 questions
1. Why should they not be expelled from the UN and in particulalr Russia from the security council at least
2. Why should any country not invade them if it feels like it since they themselves do not recognise other countries borders
The obvious answer to #1 is that India & China are on the abstention list and that's a massive chunk of the world population.
And from what I remember reading, those pair are buying up cheap Russian oil because no-one else will buy it. So it's in their interest to keep the war & sanctions going as long as possible because should Russia withdraw and open up Western markets, they'll be paying more for their energy. Cynical ? who, me ?
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Post by: john.p.clegg » Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:19 am
" I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." Karl Marx.
..or was it Groucho ?
John
..or was it Groucho ?
John
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Post by: nomad » Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:56 pm
Rather elegantly stated, IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZzGDn0yDPk
A friend of mine and I have a statement we use when we can't reach an agreement in an argument. It goes like this: "Don't bore me with facts, I've already made up my mind".
Seems to hold true on this forum as well!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZzGDn0yDPk
A friend of mine and I have a statement we use when we can't reach an agreement in an argument. It goes like this: "Don't bore me with facts, I've already made up my mind".
Seems to hold true on this forum as well!- nomad
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Post by: UAB807F » Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:21 pm
For those convinced that Russia is really sweet, innocent and just wants peace with the West, here's a Reuters report from Medvedev (Russia's Security Council Deputy chairman & mate of Putin) where he outlines his vision of the future.
Basically to expand Russia's borders in to increase security, "even if they are the borders of Poland". Which is of course, NATO. Interesting statement, I'm sure that's going to encourage the Eastern Europeans to stop backing Ukraine ?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-medvedev-floats-idea-pushing-back-polands-borders-2023-02-24/
Basically to expand Russia's borders in to increase security, "even if they are the borders of Poland". Which is of course, NATO. Interesting statement, I'm sure that's going to encourage the Eastern Europeans to stop backing Ukraine ?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-medvedev-floats-idea-pushing-back-polands-borders-2023-02-24/
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Post by: nomad » Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:28 pm
I'm going to end my participation on this subject but before I go I wish to mention that I have had two lengthy posts of rebuttals mainly that never appeared here. Whether I am incompetent [entirely possible] or am being censored I can't say. If I am being censored was it this forum or because of the link that was in both of my posts. Those links referred mainly to global financial threats. Anyway I'm just mentioning it since censor seems to be the name of the game now days regardless of Constitutional guarantees.
Also like to reiterate a point.
The two separatist states that decided to secede from Ukraine and declare themselves "Independent" fell under the same UN/USA/ NATO recognized law as Kosovo did when it seceded from Serbia. AS "independent" states being attacked by a foreign force, ie, Ukraine, they were entitled to ask Russia to defend them.
If an impartial judge could be found, , Ukraine would be the one found to be the aggressor!
NO INVASION!
Kurt
Also like to reiterate a point.
The two separatist states that decided to secede from Ukraine and declare themselves "Independent" fell under the same UN/USA/ NATO recognized law as Kosovo did when it seceded from Serbia. AS "independent" states being attacked by a foreign force, ie, Ukraine, they were entitled to ask Russia to defend them.
If an impartial judge could be found,
, Ukraine would be the one found to be the aggressor!NO INVASION!
Kurt
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