new MR2, Lotus?

[h20hamelan]

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/t ... reborn-mr2

Not enough information, seems logical to me though.

[jono]

It looks remarkably similar to the Esprit/Elan concepts shown during the Lotus Bahar era

[2cams70]

Fact: Toyota make boring cars. The problem with Toyota is that it's not in their DNA or history to make interesting cars that appeal to the senses. Toyota cars are just perfect however for going on a visit to the supermarket and back again and for knowing you'll always return back to where you started from safe and secure.

Toyota started out by making knitting machines for the production of Long John underwear and not by manufacturing automobiles. When cars first started becoming popular in the early 20th century Toyota saw that expanding the business to include car production would be a new opportunity to make profit. They didn't do it because they loved cars or had some creative ideas to put a unique product into the existing market. They did it because they saw car manufacture as a new opportunity to expand and increase profit.

On the other hand many other car companies were founded by unique men having vision, drive and passion for the car itself. Soichiro Honda (founder of Honda) was such a man and Honda products, especially the early ones, reflected his personality and vision. Of course it's been diluted somewhat today but the DNA is still there. Henry Ford was a car person also but with quite a different vision for the car than Honda. The list goes on. The exotics - Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. of course all have products reflective of the company founder's personality.

Which brings me back to Toyota. They hardly ever produce anything interesting off their own back. When they need something interesting they buy it in off the shelf:

One can imagine for Toyota Supra conversations along the lines of:
Product Planning department: "Shit this Supra is becoming a bit of an old dog - we're losing market share"
Marketing / Sales department: "F**k we've got to do something quick and sex it up. We've got a lot of cash to spend"
Product Planning department: "BMW are really shit hot. We'll never know how to make something as good as that"
Engineering department (engineers are the problem solvers): Bingo! We know how to fix it. Let's get that BMW powertrain and chassis and dress it in drag. Job done.
All departments: Excellent!! Fu**ing brilliant!!
Finance department: We'll give BMW an open cheque book. We've got heaps of cash to spend.

No doubt same story with the new Toyota - Lotus

[TBG]

What tosh!! Try this one.

https://www.lexus.co.uk/car-models/lc-convertible/

D

[jono]

The Yaris GR is the only modern car that actually appeals to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJLIDAMh3bo

...so boring

I would love one!

[mbell]

Fact: Toyota make boring cars.

I'd generally agree with that by volume of cars sold. With 99.9+% being boring.

However here in the US the available non exotic "drivers" cars can likely be counted on one hand and Toyota produce one of them, the GR86*. Like the Supra it could be argued it basically a re-badge but at least they do it.

The current CEO of Toyota is a big car person and racer, certainly the reason for the Yaris GR existing and likely also the GR86 happening. With out him those car likely would never of happened.

* This is arguably the closest thing currently available to an Elan +2.

[h20hamelan]

Is the 86 a Subaru, and the Supra a BMW?

[jono]

Fact: Toyota make boring cars.

I'd generally agree with that by volume of cars sold. With 99.9+% being boring.

However here in the US the available non exotic "drivers" cars can likely be counted on one hand and Toyota produce one of them, the GR86*. Like the Supra it could be argued it basically a re-badge but at least they do it.

The current CEO of Toyota is a big car person and racer, certainly the reason for the Yaris GR existing and likely also the GR86 happening. With out him those car likely would never of happened.

* This is arguably the closest thing currently available to an Elan +2.

To be fair they needed Subaru to do that car, or at least donate the boxer motor

The GR on the other hand is 100% Toyota, and a brilliant machine

[mbell]

To be fair they needed Subaru to do that car, or at least donate the boxer motor

Is the 86 a Subaru,

I forget the details but the 86 is more of joint development between Toyota and Subaru as it wouldn't make sense for either to do alone. The engine is a Subaru boxer, but Toyota injection and ECU. I think it based off a Toyota chassis etc.

So it is a bit different to the Supra which is a BMW with roof and Toyota badge and maybe some slight tweaks on things.

Neither create a Halo effect for Toyota but I am glad they exist and they get some respect for making them exist.

[2cams70]

I see I've got some responses happening so that is good. To give Toyota credit however I believe they have demonstrated some creativity with the following products. Note none of them exist in the category of interesting exciting cars and such examples are very rare in the Toyota world.

1. The original 1990's Toyota RAV4 SUV.
This really was a breakthrough product from Toyota. Hip styling, youthful and refined. Believe it or not it was design benchmarked against the Suzuki Vitara. The Vitara by comparison was agricultural. The fact the RAV4 was so different in concept and better than the Suzuki is remarkable and totally against what Toyota generally stands for. Imitators soon followed. Honda produced the CR-V. The CRV was better than the RAV4 but it was Toyota that started the concept of a small hip SUV with refinement the same as a small hatchback.

2. The early 1990's Toyota Tarago:
A people mover with comfort, refinement and futuristic looks. Prior to that most people movers were off-springs from something commercial.

3. The original Toyota Prius (late 1990's)
Hybrid powertrain. Enough said.

Yaris GR ?? - Naaaah! Just another me too try hard product and as per usual Toyota over-hyped (they spend HUGE money on marketing and taking journalists on expensive overseas trips with fine wining and dining). Not new in concept as such. I'd rather buy a small performance Ford. These have an illustrious pedigree going back decades.

[snowyelan]

So who, amongst the top 10ish manufacturers, has a brand specific 'non exotic drivers car'? My initial thought was the mazda mx5/miata but that went off the rails with the alfa romeo spider. WRX STI, Focus RS, Golf R...anything out there that is a 2 seater or 2+2?

[2cams70]

However here in the US the available non exotic "drivers" cars can likely be counted on one hand and Toyota produce one of them, the GR86*. Like the Supra it could be argued it basically a re-badge but at least they do it.

It basically boils down to a choice between a fake Rolex watch and an authentic Rolex watch. Given the choice I'd always go for the authentic one.

[mbell]

So who, amongst the top 10ish manufacturers, has a brand specific 'non exotic drivers car'?

For me needs to be driver focused car and available in manual. My list (all personal opinion):
- GR86/BRZ
- golf GTI or R
- honda civic SI or type r
- Hyundai Veloster N
- kia stinger
(Mx5 is not included as only two seats)

My bigger gripe is lack of manual cars and general poor driving of the average cars available here. So majority of cars are just ruled out by default.

It basically boils down to a choice between a fake Rolex watch and an authentic Rolex watch. Given the choice I'd always go for the authentic one.

Which is reasonable enough, unless your looking for a daily watch to wear while doing physical type work. In which case you want the fake one. (And a real one to wear at the weekend...)

The problem on the car side, appart from price and running costs, that exotics generally don't have room for kids in the back and aren't good for daily driving.

So I struggle to better my 20 year old bmw, which is decent to drive, can fit the kids in and I can maintain/fix it myself. I would like to replace it but nothing out there that makes me seriously consider it. Even when the BMW had some issues I need to sort out.

[2cams70]

Any Type R Honda is a great thing. Heritage too.
Kia Stinger. Not bad. Interesting wild card the Koreans. No Heritage yet.
Volkswagen Golf. Competent but clinical. A lot of people like them. Initial sparkle fades quickly and they start to feel boring rather rapidly. After the Dieselgate scandal I wouldn't but Volkswagen because of the ethics. Company culture that give rise to that sort of thing doesn't disappear overnight.

[The Veg]

I had a Mk IV GTI 1.8T, only car I ever bought new. Great car for the first five years or so, although performing the cambelt-service was a bugger I'd like to never have to do again...although nowhere NEAR as big a bugger as the camvelt on the Esprit I had! After that first five years the GTI rapidly turned into a decrepit POS. I've driven some recent Jettas and Tiguans and I really dislike them, especially their interiours. No more VWs for me, although I have so e FANTASTIC memories of driving that GTI! It was a real GT, loads of fun AND comfy for 800-mile days and it could haul stuff too. I even took it up Pike's Peak once!

Back to Toyota, I've never owned one and probably never will. With precious-few exceptions they totally fail to get my interest. I was 16 when the first MR2s hit the market and I *WANTED* one! That was a seriously cool car as the '80s goes. I sat in one once back then but have never driven one. The second-gerneration MR2 is pretty cool too, and a recent write-up in Classic Motorsports makes them seem like a worthwhile 'budget classic' sporty-car.
Some of the Celicas (which anagrams to celiacs, oddly) of many years ago were pretty cool as 'ordinary' cars go.
The first three generations of Supra seem fun, especially the third. After that I don't care if the car better, because the fourth generation is rather ugly to my eye and the current generation much more so.
And then a very long time ago there was the 2000GT. Gotta love that one!

Oh and if you're into the 'hot hatch' thing I seem to recall a Corolla variant back in the '80s that scored some high marks.

But no, I have absolutely zero interest in any Camrys or Rav4s or such.