Lotus Elan

The EU Referundum for the UK.

PostPost by: billwill » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:31 pm

Frogelan wrote:@Billwill

I'm not sure that a car forum is really the place for this type of debate.



1. This is the FREE PARKING area
2. The topic has a clear title, you don't have to read it.
3. The Auto industry is predicted as being one of the industries that will be worst hit by Brexit.
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PostPost by: Slowtus » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:07 am

The Veg wrote:The few Yanks who are paying attention:


Par for the course.

if it ain't here, it ain't intrestin'...
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PostPost by: elaninfuture » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:22 am

Slowtus wrote:
The Veg wrote:The few Yanks who are paying attention:


Par for the course.

if it ain't here, it ain't intrestin'...


I'm paying attention. Sure, I think pro-Brexit folks have lost their marbles. But I'm thankful that the pound has fallen to the level that Lotus parts now cost less in England than in California, even when factoring in shipping.
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PostPost by: UAB807F » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:14 am

Frogelan wrote:(part quote)
Just remember that this Ref excluded the votes of Brits living in the EU and EU citizens living in the UK. It does not come even close to the definition of being inclusively democratic.


That's an odd one, why should non-UK nationals have a vote in the direction of this country ? Yes, they live here and some may even settle long term but are you suggesting that anyone residing in the UK at the time of voting should have been eligible ? How about someone on a gap year before returning home to study and possibly never returning ?

When we consider ex pats living abroad, again why should they have the right to influence a country where they no longer reside ? Do Brits living in Australia, USA, Canada, Africa, India, etc. have a say as well ?

At first sight the idea of "living there=voting rights" sounds fair but I don't think it's that simple. You could argue that England, Wales and NI should have participated in the Scottish Independence vote a few years ago but that was, quite rightly, considered a matter only for the Scots to decide. And that was, again quite rightly, the case in 2016.

There were "dodgy dealings" on both side of the debate, both Labour and Conservative MPs were elected in 2017 on a manifesto to honour the referendum result and leave the EU. 6 months after that election it became very clear that Labour were going to oppose whatever the Conservatives did and they were assisted by Conservative MPs U-turning on their election pledges. The only party with any honour in that respect were the LibDems who openly campaigned to Remain.

Our PM negotiated secretly and independently of the department set up (by her) to negotiate withdrawal and then forced her terms on the cabinet, leading to resignations. Despite trying to hide the legal advice, that agreement was soundly defeated by the largest majority to date because as everyone could see, it wasn't "leaving the EU".

Both sides have skeletons to hide. I think we just have to accept those events as historical fact and move on.

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PostPost by: alan.barker » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:24 pm

UAB807F wrote:
Frogelan wrote:(part quote)
Just remember that this Ref excluded the votes of Brits living in the EU and EU citizens living in the UK. It does not come even close to the definition of being inclusively democratic.


That's an odd one, why should non-UK nationals have a vote in the direction of this country ? Yes, they live here and some may even settle long term but are you suggesting that anyone residing in the UK at the time of voting should have been eligible ? How about someone on a gap year before returning home to study and possibly never returning ?

When we consider ex pats living abroad, again why should they have the right to influence a country where they no longer reside ? Do Brits living in Australia, USA, Canada, Africa, India, etc. have a say as well ?

At first sight the idea of "living there=voting rights" sounds fair but I don't think it's that simple. You could argue that England, Wales and NI should have participated in the Scottish Independence vote a few years ago but that was, quite rightly, considered a matter only for the Scots to decide. And that was, again quite rightly, the case in 2016.

There were "dodgy dealings" on both side of the debate, both Labour and Conservative MPs were elected in 2017 on a manifesto to honour the referendum result and leave the EU. 6 months after that election it became very clear that Labour were going to oppose whatever the Conservatives did and they were assisted by Conservative MPs U-turning on their election pledges. The only party with any honour in that respect were the LibDems who openly campaigned to Remain.

Our PM negotiated secretly and independently of the department set up (by her) to negotiate withdrawal and then forced her terms on the cabinet, leading to resignations. Despite trying to hide the legal advice, that agreement was soundly defeated by the largest majority to date because as everyone could see, it wasn't "leaving the EU".

Both sides have skeletons to hide. I think we just have to accept those events as historical fact and move on.

Brian

Because we have worked in England and earned an English Pension. This is effected by Exchange Rates. I have already LOST 25 percent with the BREXIT CRAP.
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PostPost by: SENC » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:35 pm

It seems those who found the brawling itself fun have resolved take up arms over the Lotus 7 Club since Brexit was decided. I recently joined after acquiring my Seven, but quite a kerfuffle over there on the blatchat! Glad our Merry group of elanners keep things a bit lighter!
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PostPost by: The Veg » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:42 pm

Slowtus wrote:
The Veg wrote:The few Yanks who are paying attention:


Par for the course.

if it ain't here, it ain't intrestin'...


That and most of us are pre-occupied with watching our country descend into fascism.
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PostPost by: Mazzini » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:49 pm

The Veg wrote:
Slowtus wrote:
The Veg wrote:The few Yanks who are paying attention:


Par for the course.

if it ain't here, it ain't intrestin'...


That and most of us are pre-occupied with watching our country descend into fascism.


And the global reemergence of populism.
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PostPost by: jcocking » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:32 pm

I have enjoyed reading the banter on this thread. It has been interesting watching the geo-political landscape evolve over the last few years. It has also been fun reading real people's opinions about a serious topic. Here is one Yank's philosophical view.

With unlimited international communication, trade, and travel the world has become a smaller place. As the world has become smaller, the need for people to belong to a tribe increases. The rise in nationalism is a natural reaction to the rise in globalism.

We are seeing it on a global scale, but we also see it at an individual level. People are affiliating along lines of race, ethnicities, nationalities, sporting teams, schools, etc... What is interesting is we celebrate individualism as diversity and inclusion, but call it xenophobic and fascism on a national level.

We celebrate the rights of an individual to pick an identity and proudly proclaim it. We shun and treat people who do not accept it. Well until as an individual, if you choose to identify as a proud member of a nation, then it is wrong.

I believe individuals and nations should be respected and celebrated. If you want to belong to a particular group, it is your choice. This should be the same for people and nations. If the EU doesn't work for your nation, leave it. If the pub down the street doesn't work for you, go drink somewhere else.

Concerning the elections: As someone who has worked in many local and state elections, the losing side always hates saying we lost. If you lose an election, you did not convince enough people to vote for your idea/candidate. You can blame it on the Russians, Facebook, dumb voters, and the media, but you just did not convince enough people. It is frustrating to lose, but move on and get over it.

jeff

ps. Since I can easily trace my ancestry to Higher Lux Street, Liskeard, Cornwall, can I vote in the next election?
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PostPost by: RichC » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:02 am

yes if you like you can vote in the next election for the Peoples Republic of Cornwall..
https://www.visitnewquay.org/whats-on/s ... y-p1668963
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PostPost by: 69S4 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:45 am

Re Cornish independence, another opportunity lost. Back in the 70’s, when North Sea oil was starting to flow, there was a ‘suggestion’ that we should use it to power a huge outboard motor clamped to the top of Scotland and move the U.K. south, parking it in a more pleasant climate off the coast of Spain :D Cornwall’s function was to act as the rudder. It would then break off, giving the Cornish their independence.

Now of course we don’t need to do that as global warming from burning the oil has brought the coast of Spain up to meet us. :lol:
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PostPost by: gherlt » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:42 am

UAB807F wrote:That's an odd one, why should non-UK nationals have a vote in the direction of this country ?

Because the law gave them the right to do so, same as UK nationals residents in EU countries have the right to vote there. Give and receive.
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PostPost by: Mazzini » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:52 am

Cornwall makes me think of cycling holidays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ29fYD ... ex=12&t=0s

I love the last couple of minutes of the sketch.
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PostPost by: billwill » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:07 pm

gherlt wrote:
UAB807F wrote:That's an odd one, why should non-UK nationals have a vote in the direction of this country ?

Because the law gave them the right to do so, same as UK nationals residents in EU countries have the right to vote there. Give and receive.


I have been unable to find any trace of such a law, can you supply a viable reference. Most pages with any relevance discuss voting in national elections and elections for the EU Parliament, but do not mention referendums (referenda).
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PostPost by: UAB807F » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:06 pm

gherlt wrote:
UAB807F wrote:That's an odd one, why should non-UK nationals have a vote in the direction of this country ?

Because the law gave them the right to do so, same as UK nationals residents in EU countries have the right to vote there. Give and receive.


In a Referendum for whether or not the country should remain in the EU ?

Edit to add - Bill beat me to it, that's teach me to read to the end of the thread :)
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