Hydrogen assisted Internal Combustion Engines

[persiflage]

Now if one were to couple this electrolysis schema with a magnetic collar on the fuel line to align the petrol molecules for more efficient combustion, THEN we might seem some REAL action!

I was given a couple of these amazing magnets to "trial" on a straight 6 Triumph, back in the early '80s and can confirm they produced amazing results ... allowing me to shut down one of the twin Stromburgs and run on just three cylinders.
However, they caused severe interference with my "sticky on window compass" system and just had to go.

[summerinmaine]

Jim,

Yes, your Zener voltage regulators must be dissipating some heat - but how much? I've no idea, I would be interested to know, but is it 5W, 10W, even 100W ?

Good question Paddy. I do know that having touched the heat sink once by mistake after a long ride, I'll never do it again.

The heat sink is about four inches in circumference, has fins like a barrel, and is located on the front forks in the full airstream. I suppose I could estimate the surface area of the fins, and get a rough approximation for heat dissipation capacity. Or figure that Bonnie generators weren't known for their high output, and thus the heat requiring dissipation would likewise be modest.

Compare that with the 1kW that would represent a 1% change in engine output, or the 10kW that might start to make an appreciable difference.

I think we're agreed that the only situation in which this approach makes sense is if it changes the energy economics of the main fuel conversion.

Paddy

Agreed.

[Galwaylotus]

As an aside, I got the impression that these hydrogen systems *are* creating a net increase in energy because they cause the engine to work more efficiently, ie to derive more mechanical energy from the hydrocarbon that is burned (presumably generating less heat, or hydrocarbon, or both). I don't know whether or not this is true, but it is theoretically possible to get a net increase in energy. Obviously the water -> hydrogen+oxygen -> water cycle doesn't release energy by itself, but it can have a side-effect on the other process that's happening.

Paddy

So you reckon it might be acting as a catalyst?? If not then there is no net gain. I'd like to see some solid test results - preferably lab tests - before buying into it!

[billwill]

Argh. I explained this on the previous page.

It's not so much a catalyst as a simple means of insuring that more fuel burns properly. The fuel is ignited by the hydrogen flame and not merely by the spark plug as normal, so more of it burns properly .

[paddy]

Thinking about it some more, and the likely potential for more complete combustion - I think for a well tuned engine the level of incomplete combustion (resulting in exhaust HC, or CO) quite low so I don't see that there's too much potential for the hydrogen to help here (maybe a few percent?). If the combustion is incomplete because the AFR is wrong, then again I don't see how the hydrogen will help.

However, the other effect, which could be quite significant, is if the hydrogen flame causes the fuel combustion to be much more instantaneous. Then it will be possible to get better efficiency by having the combustion (or, more accurately, the pressure differential resulting from combustion) happen more precisely at TDC.

I'm sure Rohan knows what the answer is, but he's just watching us talking, pretending to know what we're on about

Paddy

[summerinmaine]

Thinking about it some more, and the likely potential for more complete combustion - I think for a well tuned engine the level of incomplete combustion (resulting in exhaust HC, or CO) quite low so I don't see that there's too much potential for the hydrogen to help here (maybe a few percent?). If the combustion is incomplete because the AFR is wrong, then again I don't see how the hydrogen will help.

However, the other effect, which could be quite significant, is if the hydrogen flame causes the fuel combustion to be much more instantaneous. Then it will be possible to get better efficiency by having the combustion (or, more accurately, the pressure differential resulting from combustion) happen more precisely at TDC.

I'm sure Rohan knows what the answer is, but he's just watching us talking, pretending to know what we're on about

Paddy

I suspect you're right about Rohan, but I question your assumption about any benefit gained by hastening the AF flame front in the combustion chamber. Back when I took auto shop, it was explained that, although it seems counterintuitive, higher octane rating allows greater ignition advance (and thus greater power development) because it causes the fuel to burn slower, not faster. Pre-ignition (knocking, pinking) is what results from having the AF mixture burn too fast, as another flame front will develop in the chamber, and clash with the plug-induced flame front. The sound is like a clap of thunder, where two "curtains" of air are crashing back together after being split by lightning.

More complete ignition of the AF mixture is achieved by more controlled ignition and burning, not by an instantaneous explosion. Just like a rocket sled. You want the thrust to build up, and not have the entire rocket explode behind you like a bomb.

As we all know, this is not a good thing.