Russia

[AshleyPark]

Actually, the nuclear arsenal in Ukrainian territory was never the Ukraine’s, it was always under the control of Russian troops, even after the fall of the Soviet Union.

It was the US and Britain that insisted that all the warheads were removed from Ukraine, and by 1996 they were, back to Russia.

Yes, the Russians later betrayed the Budapest agreement that led to Ukraine renouncing the nuclear weapons on its territory, but equally, the US violated their agreement that they made with Gorbachev not to expand NATO Eastwards!

These are just facts, not 'cherry picked' to justify anything.

[rgh0]

I think you will find that Nato has always been formally committed to an open door policy for countries that wish to join the defensive alliance. There was never any formal Nato agreement with Gorbachev. There have been many agreements with Russia post the collapse of the USSR. ( Russia is not the USSR despite it somehow retaining the USSR's spot on the UN security council?) Regardless, all of these agreements have failed over the last 30 years.... Russia blames the West, the West blames Russia and the debates just go on and on

In the end all this history does not matter and their is little point debating it today and as always the victors will write the history later. Today Russia is clearly trying to impose its will on Ukraine through use of military force (and has been doing so increasingly forcefully since 2014) and enough Western countries dislike that enough to supply the needed aid to Ukraine and enough Ukrainians are prepared to shed their blood for their country such that Russia is finding it very hard going.

[alan.barker]

+1 Rohan.
Go home Russia, your Empire was finished a long time ago.
Alan

[nmauduit]

I know others have other timelines and beliefs which just demonstrates you can cherry pick want you want in history to justify anything

very true, and it sadens me to see apparently reasonable people (well, as reasonable as Lotus enthusiasts can be) let themselves dragged into discussions that would better be left to bars and leave this mostly peaceful forum safe from dogmatic propaganda from any side or other undemonstrable personnal viewpoint, as it used to be...

[AshleyPark]

Rohan

Of course the validity of the agreement to halt the expansion of Nato is open to debate, and which side you believe, like you say, shows where you’re coming from! However, even if if there wasn’t a formal agreement, the undoubted move towards encircling Russia with American bases in bordering Nato countries is hugely provocative.

There’s no doubt in my mind that the US is every bit as much of an expansionist power, bent on imperial conquest, as people claim Russia is.

Just as in Iraq and Libya, whose leaders were also painted as being irrational megalomaniacs about to unleash weapons of mass destruction, the same game plan is being enacted today.

The truth about Iraq and Libya was subsequently revealed to be about regime change and Biden himself has admitted that this war in Ukraine is really about regime change in Russia.


Alan

Wake up! More weapons being thrown at this conflict just means more destruction and more lives lost. Unless there is an all out war between the West and Russia, Russia won’t be defeated. There must be peace talks now, not ever ending escalation!


Nmauduit

If you look back at this thread you’ll see I was the first to say that this subject shouldn’t be discussed on this forum, it is not an appropriate place. However, as long as I see people arguing that there should be more war and the only way to finish the war is by sending more weapons, I won’t sit back and not say anything.

[englishmaninwales]

What’s wrong with some debate on an area of forum that is intended to be unrestricted (within the general rules of the forum)?
As previously said, if you don’t like it, you don’t have to look at it!
Seems to me the main ‘objectors’ have been unable to resist commenting on the thread

Edited to add: Many of the contributions have represented a broad range of valid opinions with interesting links.

[alan.barker]

Tell Putin he must talk peace and stop.
I am fully awake and from my family who were Bombed in Portsmouth WW11.
My Grandfather digging a big hole in his Garden to build a Bomb Shelter.
My Father Savage Diver Engineer Royal Navy, Mers El Kiber, Ceylon Tricamalee, Scapaflow.
Hitler didn't want to loose and he did.
Go "go home Russia" and bury the young Russians who have died for Putin's Ego and his rebuilding of an Empire.
Sorry to sound like i am shouting but my feelings run high on this subject.
As they say this is "free parking"
Cheers
Alan

[john.p.clegg]

What is the problem?

When you receive an email entitled , " Topic reply notification - "Russia" " , just ignore it.....

Let those who are interested , take part ?

John

[AshleyPark]

Sorry Alan, I didn't mean to get your feelings running high and of course I understand that you have personal reasons for your point of view.

[alan.barker]

Ok Ashley,
No hard feelings and it's good to say what we think and discuss.
I have lived in France for 30 years and sometimes i like the phrase "Entente Cordiale" mon Ami.
Amicalement
Alan

[Terry Posma]

Just spotted this thread. Firstly I am not a conspiracy theorist but I will floaty this.

I do not think the west is particularly upset by this conflict. In fact I think they are quite happy to see it occur and go on for a while as:

1. It is a good distraction for internal problems.
2.It gives the West an opportunity to test Eastern resolve in conflicts. This includes Russia and friends, China and Iran.
3. Test weapons in the hands of people who have something to fight for, smarter and are more committed than an Afgan soldier.
3. Get rid of old stock.
4. See what is the best the east can do in terms of weapon sophistication.
5. Wear Russia out. They have been a bit uppity for a while and the economic and social damage that this conflict will eventually do is worth the money poured into it. I recon they would probably do the same with Taiwan. Test China's resolve although I think they would be tougher.
6. The yanks will just keep racking up debt to keep this going, they have been doing it for ages in other zones, nothing will change. While they owe the rest of the world, everyone has to draw their breath.
7. The only problem is the inflationary effect of all the money going into the arms industry with no real social or economic good but that is the price to pay to re equip your armed forces. Got to get rid of the old tech.
8. I think the west know perfectly well that the leaders of these countires are not lunatics but very selfish money grubbing people. If these leaders push a button they know they will be dust in a couple of hours and you cannot spend all your billions when you are dust. There is so much self interest going on here it defies logic, or it may be quite logical.
9. Putin has unfortunately picked a fight with a bit of a looney and that will be his downfall. Zelensky is not powerful enough to do alot of damage but he is mad/desperate/agreeved/incenced enough to be a real pain in the arse.
10. This conflict will put the acid on a whole lot of despots. Look at Iran, the leaders there will be ringing around to find bolt holes at present as that could quickly get out of control. This is much like the Arab spring and the end of the cold war, these things come around and they get sorted out with some tears, a few loonies are tossed out, there is quiet for a while again and there is a whole lot more western debt.

There I said it.

[john.p.clegg]

Sorry, have to disagree with point 9 , I admire the man and there are not enough principled people around these days...

John

[steve lyle]

Here's the facts, people.

1) Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014. He got away with it. It was consistent with his invasion of Georgia, so he had reason to believe he would get away with it. There's a pattern here.

2) He invaded Ukraine because he couldn't tolerate a liberal democracy on his doorstep. He needed at least a vassal state.

3) This wasn't about NATO expansion. Ukraine was certainly willing to concede that away prior to the invasion. Now, they'd be stupid to do it. In any event, NATO expansion is driven by Russian aggression, not the other way around - see Sweden and Finland.

4) Putin apologists are calling for negotiations and for the West to stop sending arms because they abhor war. Really? Why not call on Putin to get out of Ukraine. The war would stop immediately. Why not complain about the trainloads of tanks and arms that Putin is sending into Ukraine? Don't you know who started this war?

5) Zelensky is certainly a strong war leader. But he is reflective of his country. Ukraine doesn't have to offer clemency to murderers to man their army. If the Ukrainians didn't want to defend their country, the West wouldn't be sending arms. In fact, they didn't, until it was clear that Ukraine would use them effectively.

6) The real irony here is people in the West defending Putin - a proven murderer and autocrat, and so arguing against the positions of their governments. Democratic governments, i.e., ones that they can participate in selecting. Something that doesn't exist in Russia, where the media is government controlled, dissent gets you murdered or locked up, and running against Putin gets you murdered or locked up. These "we're just as bad" arguments are just so ironic. I'll agree with you when you're making those arguments from a prison cell, or graveyard.

[AshleyPark]

Oh dear Steve, Russia did not invade Ukraine in 2014. Fact.

Here are some more ACTUAL facts for you:

1. In 2008, Putin warned the West of the consequences of Nato threatening to expand into Russia’s neighbouring countries of Ukraine and Georgia. He briefly invaded Georgia, the ‘5 day war’, which was in response to a missile attack on South Ossetia, a Georgian state bordering Russia. The assault was carried out by the Georgia military that was funded and armed by the US. Hardly an unprovoked invasion!

After that Nato changed their minds about expanding to the two former Soviet states, which said everything. By the way, imagine what George W would have done at the time had Russia started military exercises in Mexico or Canada or Cuba??

In 2014 the democratically elected government of President Viktor Yanukovic was violently overthrown by US supported ultra nationalists, who installed a non-democratically elected government that started a war against its own citizens in the Donbas region of Ukraine, 15 to 20 thousand of whom were killed between 2014 and 2022!

It was partly to protect those Russian speaking citizens in the East of the country that prompted Putin’s invasion. Hardly unprovoked!


2. You’ve gotta love how America spreads ‘democracy’ around the world! Like in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Libya. Yeah, like Putin needed that on his doorstep!

3. In the last 3 decades since the break up of the Soviet Union, Nato has moved 1,000 miles Eastwards. It’s becoming a self- fulfllling prophecy, a force designed to keep the peace is in fact marching towards direct confrontation with Russia!

See my answer 2. for who the real aggressors are, and add in Somalia, Yemen, Cambodia, Laos, Grenada and Yugoslavia for good measure!!

4. Is that the best you can do? Call people who want an end to this war ‘Putin apologists’? Jeezus how lame! In the end it doesn’t matter how/who started it, sooner or later it will end and that will be by getting around a table and negotiating a peace deal. I say do that now, not in 2 years time.

5. Zelensky is nothing more than a puppet, he has no interest in freedom or democracy, I think anyone can see that. This is a war between Nato and Russia, make no mistake about that. Ukraine wanted to make peace a few months after it started but the US and Boris Johnson insisted Zelensky wasn’t to negotiate with Putin. It’s the West fighting Russia until last Ukrainian!

6. This is quite funny. Our media, at least in Europe, is no less censored than it is in Russia. There is not a single news source from Russia that is freely available on mainstream news sources. The Russian broadcaster RT, for instance, was shut down in the first weeks of the war.

The thing is, when you’re being pumped with one-sided propaganda and having alternative view points taken away from you, it’s very difficult to recognise that it’s happening. However, when you say something that’s out of line you’re viewed as betraying Ukraine or a ‘Putin apologist’. Dissent is not tolerated, even here!

Don’t get me started on Democracy. What democratic choice do you really have when the Republicans and Democrats or the Conservatives and Labour are all just the same as each other?

If you really want irony, how about the fact that you’re cheerleading for a country that hero worships Stepan Bandera, a fascist wartime leader, who sent thousands of Ukrainian Jews to their deaths during the holocaust! But I guess you knew that!

[2cams70]

What is the problem?

When you receive an email entitled , " Topic reply notification - "Russia" " , just ignore it.....

Let those who are interested , take part ?

John

Yeah agree - I reckon this topic doesn’t have enough steam behind it. Let’s start another one headed “China”