America Votes! Civil war predictions

[h20hamelan]

Long, sad and fascinating article. Also explains Mitch McConnell and why the Intelligence Agencies failed to protect US security.

For me the worst part is that the elites threw away freedom and the American ideal for an additional billion. They truly are empty suits.

Short video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5L48nTBJmMg

Article

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news ... ty-tyrants

And I doubt Canada is any different!

[rgh0]

when you have a choice in deciding what's really going on between "conspiracy" and "stuff up" always choose stuff up and you will be right most of the time.

cheers
Rohan

[h20hamelan]

Sure, maybe. I dont think there is much debate.

In 1950, a ceo was only allowed to make 5% more than the average worker.

Before global trade (here in N America) big business and banks were not allowed to buy other big businesses.

If inflation followed minimum wage, in Canada we would be at $48/hr not $9.

Canada continues to give away its commodities, all countries are now a toxic dumping ground for the 1%. That is, if the 1% needs us which I highly doubt it does.

I am not opposed to the standard of life most on here have experienced (anyone on here under 45/yr old?) What I am trying to caution people to, is what is happening (actually what has happened).

[The Veg]

In 1950, a ceo was only allowed to make 5% more than the average worker.

Really? That's news to me. I wasn't around in 1950, but I'm not aware that any actual restriction ever existed. That said, it's true that the multiple of the 'average' worker's wage that CEOs make has rather sharply increased in the last few decades. But more than 100 years ago it was probably worse than now.

[h20hamelan]

Corporations were not permitted to buy up others
And minimum wage is a living wage

Corporations control the governments

[JohnCh]

In 1950, a ceo was only allowed to make 5% more than the average worker.

If inflation followed minimum wage, in Canada we would be at $48/hr not $9.

You've mentioned both of these data points in the past, and they have always flummoxed me. As the head of the company, a CEO has the most responsibility, the most pressure, and arguably the hardest job. If we equate that to the belief that they should generally be the highest compensated person at a company, that means that at just 5% more than a company's average worker, the pay range must be very, very narrow. Did the person in the 1950 mail room really make within ~10% of the VP of Operations? That doesn't seem to correlate to the differences in responsibility, experience, capability and importance to the company of those jobs being done well.

Looking at minimum wage, $48/hour equates to $96k/year assuming a 40 hour week and 2 weeks unpaid vacation. In US dollars, that's $75.6k/year. Minimum wage is meant for the jobs that require the least skill and experience to perform. Does it make sense that the person in their first year of flipping burgers earns that much annually?

I'm not saying that current minimum wages aren't too low, or that there isn't an issue in many industries with regard to pay disparity, but it would be interesting to see the data behind those numbers so I can understand what I'm missing.

-John

[h20hamelan]

I dont mean anyone in particular, the facts are maybe two or three years old.

I am really only pointing out wage discrepancy. That is not really the killer, the killer is "our" governments ability to go where the money is. It is a completely false system.

I am not a communist, nor do I want to be.

I do believe in regionalism, similar to New Zealand. World trade has always, and will always be necessary. It does not need to be where it is are at now.

I believe the unrest in America and Canada for the most part comes from inequality. If we had factories, and little trade we would be doing fine.

I moved to this area, because it has the highest percent of Co-Op's per capita (this is also the largest electoral region in Canada). Not to mention, where many draft dodgers (my mother-in-law is from Venice Beach).

In my youth, I have done some "hard" jobs, bailing hay, farming, tree planting. Not to undermine operating a company which I do now. While there are too many bleeding hearts and lazy idiots, lord knows this is the problem. Rather, corporate greed. If Government was on top of companies, instead of under them.
Canada lost its spine about 1987.

JohnCh, I can not argue or agree. I simply have an issue with too great a wage gap. Of course a VP of Operations is worth more. I guess that is the question. How much more is he or she really worth?

[Bud English]

How much is your Lotus worth? It's worth what someone will pay for it. If no company's board of directors was willing to pay what they pay, managing a company would pay less.

When you start government regulation of maximum pay, where do you stop? How much are the top coaches in sports worth? Players? Hollywood directors? Stars? Music artists? How much did those vocations earn in 1950 and why is any of that relevant to today? How much would regulating top earners actually affect unskilled workers pay?

But, but... wouldn't everybody feel better if they made much less?

[h20hamelan]

I certainly do agree that sports, politicians or anyone in the public eye is grotesquely overpaid. Truth is, if they walk into a restaurant, they often eat for free for a photo or some publicity.

I expect if circumstances were reversed...

More to the point, it is the 1% and that is probably not anyone here. It is wanting the best for our children and grandchildren.

[The Veg]

Gross disparity of wealth (which we call 'inequality' in popular shorthand) is a funny thing. WAY too much wealth is accumulated up top, leaving so very little for everyone else and this has been getting worse. But it's also not a zero-sum game as those at the top seem to think it is (zero for the 99% = 1% wins the game). Economies are built from the bottom up, no exceptions. Trickle-down doesn't work no matter what we re-brand it as. The basic problem seems to be that as near as I can tell, greed and oligarchy seem to be basic human nature.

[nomad]

Well my sympathy's are with the gentleman from the Kootenay's. IMO the main and really the only problem is too much money in the hands of too few people. Because a tiny handful of moneyed people control everything we engage in socialism for the rich while everyone else is engaging in cut throat capitalism. In most cases that cut throat capitalism is against the unlimited funds of the rich. If you have ever engaged in an auction for an Elan you know how that comes out.

The problem has taken a long time to reach its current state. Amazon pays no income tax while you and I are taxed to death. And when we pay those taxes do we ever see a gain for society from them? Under FDR the maximum income tax was 100% on not all that much income. Even as late as Dwight Eisenhower the maximum tax was 90%.

So, what do those at the top do with all that money? Well, they do what they have always done...try to make more.

My industry has always been agriculture. In the last 40 years I would say that 95% of farmers have been put out of business and in their stead vertical integrators and big money investors have taken over. In the US it is virtually impossible to raise a chicken broiler, chicken egg, turkey, or hog without being under contract to a integrator. If you raise beef you sell to four packers of which two of them are Brazilian. A large part of your US beef is fed out by those same packers that also have much of the control of imports from the, I think, 16 foreign country's that we currently import from. Dairy's, with big investment money, now look like small cities and who is doing most of the work but undocumented workers who have amnesty since they are working in agriculture. So what are the rest of framers doing but producing dirt cheap feed for those vertical integrators.

The decision appears to have been made somewhere that the only thing the US would export was agricultural goods. I laughed when I read that one of the arguments against Brexit was the fact that England would have to import food from the US where it has so much lower quality than what they were getting from the EU!

I believe that Marie Antoinette learned the hard way that you have to feed the starving masses cheap or else!

My industry isn't alone. The same sort of thing has happened all over the US and Canada I'm sure. Is it any wonder people are angry! Unfortunately, in most cases, their anger is misdirected.

Thanks for indulging me my rant!

Kurt

[The Veg]

Taxed to death?

We pay the lowest taxes in the developed world by a significant margin. We also have to lowest rate of satisfaction with what we get for our taxes, hence all the grousing about paying them.

[h20hamelan]

Taxed to death?

We pay the lowest taxes in the developed world by a significant margin. We also have to lowest rate of satisfaction with what we get for our taxes, hence all the grousing about paying them.

maybe Kurt is speaking about Corporate tax vs Personal
I think Corporate tax was 42% in the 50's, and is now 8-12 or some crazy thing, while personal is the 50% if your a small business owner, and probably average 30% after the dust settles individual.

[mbell]

We pay the lowest taxes in the developed world by a significant margin.

That was my thought, the issue I have is you get very little for your taxes here.

If you start adding in property taxes and class medical costs as a tax then the taxes aren't so low for the normal person. And the average person doesn't have much opportunity to avoid the tax as all the income is via income.

If your rich you can rearrange most of your money so it's not income and pay much reduced taxes. Also cost of medical stuff is relatively nothing, it much better to pay for your own that pay increased taxes for a more social system.

In summary the system is rigged for the rich and nothing much will changed when electrons are basically bought by the rich.

[nomad]

Taxed to death?

We pay the lowest taxes in the developed world by a significant margin. We also have to lowest rate of satisfaction with what we get for our taxes, hence all the grousing about paying them.

Perhaps that statement incorrectly emphasized the tax situation. IMO, it looks as if the average Joe is the only one paying the taxes and, as I see it, we get very little for it.

Whoever has the most cash in the end, end's up with everything. That is capitalism and addressing that with a good tax system just seems logical. Money doesn't flow down to the masses like they have been trying to tell the masses that it does. It acts a lot more like a gas filled balloon that will rise into the heavens till it explodes. The natural history of capitalism would be that one person ends up with everything. Before that happens, the balloon burst's! The current unrest shows the balloon is getting close to its maximum height.

Kurt