America Votes! Civil war predictions

[steve lyle]

You need to be able to separate the character of a person from the concrete things they have achieved. For example some might have described Colin Chapman as being a somewhat shady and ruthless character but does this necessarily detract from what he achieved?

In the case of Trump from the alternative media (Sky News here in Australia) they have the following positive things to say about Trump. I make no judgement either way. We are all captive to the information we receive from the popular media and it's no secret that the popular media absolutely hate Trump and he is the underdog in that regard. Did you hear about Biden's son and the lost laptops currently under FBI investigation in the popular media? - no way!!

1/ Does not pander to the Chinese (or anyone for that matter)
2/ One of the few American presidents not send his people to unwinnable wars. Indeed he made a point of pulling ground troops out of wars
3/ Achieved peace in the middle east by acknowledging Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
4/ Kept jobs in America rather than shifting them offshore.

They also say he achieved a big increase in votes from minorities in the recent election - Hispanics, black Americans and gays. He decreased the unemployment rate amongst these minorities.

I'm not saying he was perfect but he certainly wasn't all bad. Let's face it to be the top of the pile be it of a country or a company you need to be a bit of an asshole. That's the cold hard reality.

I for one like Mike Pence. Much more level headed and rational than Donald Trump

Well, let's start with the fact that Sky News Australia makes our Fox News in the US look leftist. If you think you're getting a balanced view of Trump, if that's even possible to do, from them, then I don't know what to tell you.

But, let's take each of those points:
1) Wrong. He panders to China when it's in his interest - like when he thinks they'll somehow give him a boost for his election - which is why he was complimentary of them early in Covid when he thought he had a trade deal he could crow about, before he figured he needed to demonize them to cover up his incompetence. And of course, he ALWAYS panders to Putin. Surprised they didn't mention that (not).
2) We're still everywhere we were before. He "surged" in Afghanistan just like Obama did. He gave Obama crap for drawing down in Iraq and not going into Syria. You better believe he would have if he thought his base would have liked it. It's all about him.
3) Peace in the Middle East? Really? He bribed countries to sign agreements with Israel by taking them off the terrorist state list (Sudan) that they shouldn't have been on to begin with. And Sudan, or the UAE, have never fought with Israel to begin with. Meanwhile, he stirred things up with Iran by unilaterally pulling out of the Iran deal (that his own people said was working), which put them closer to a weapon, taking out their general, which caused them their surrogates to up their attacks on our troops still in Iraq and attack our embassy, bringing us to the edge of pulling our embassy out entirely. In other words, ceding Iraq over to Iran. If you think that makes peace closer in the Mideast, I've got a bridge for sale. Look, if you want peace in the Mid East, help to get things settled between Israel and the Palestinians - and Trump moved that goal to the edge of impossible by basically approving anything that Bibi wants or wanted.
4) Huh? Trump took absolutely no action to stop any shifting of jobs offshore, beyond setting up a one on one trade war with China that cost us just as many jobs as it might have created, and forced Americans to pay billions in tarriff fees that Trump claimed China was actually paying. Job growth under Trump, prior to Covid, was basically a linear function continuation from the Obama years. Actually, a little less - even after he added $1.5 TRILLION to our debt by passing a tax cut in the midst of an economic expansion (stupid) where 95% of the benefit went to the richest 1%. And then, of course, Covid, which he tried to convince us wasn't really that bad, actually cratered the economy and wiped out years of progress in the economy and employment, especially for minorities.

And he STILL got 70 million plus votes. Which tells you all you need to know about the tribalization of US politics. There used to be a thing called a "Yellow Dog Democrat" in the south, which was someone who would vote for a yellow dog before voting for a Republican (white southerners had a thing about Republicans after the civil war). Today, both parties are kind of like that, and there aren't that many independent voters for the parties to fight over. So, national elections are going to be close. There are more Democrats than Republicans, but the Electoral College gives Republicans a bit of an advantage that tends to more than wipe that out.

So if you're a Democrat, you're kind of glad that Republicans stuck with possibly the worst human being to run for president maybe ever. While Republicans did very well overall, likely retaining the Senate, picking up House seats, and doing well in state legislative races, the presidential race was basically a referendum on Trump, and the American people spoke pretty loudly, ultimately, on that.

[steve lyle]

The amazing / best medical system that he promised 4 years ago is still MIA

Yep agree with you there. It's important that society has a safety net for those unable to pay. One thing I really hate about the left though is their attempts to silence free speech and their hypocrisy.

Not sure what you're referring to re: left hypocrisy, honestly, but here's some right hypocrisy for you:
- In Arizona, where they were behind, they chanted "count the votes"
- In Michigan, when they were ahead because the vote counting wasn't done, they chanted "stop the count"
- In 2016, 9 months before the election, you couldn't even hold hearings on a Supreme Court nominee. In 2020, 6 weeks before the election, no problem.

As for silencing free speech, yeah, the left has some nuts in it. As does the right. Last time I checked, white supremacists (who vote for Trump, BTW) weren't so big on free speech, either. This I do know, however: Trump panders to white supremacists. Biden does not pander to the far left, as much as Trump wanted us to believe he did. Heck, they don't even like him, he's been historically such a moderate, and many just sat out the election.

[2cams70]

I'm no expert in American politics by any means. Sitting from afar though despite the pre election polls being promoted as saying Trump didn't have a hope the end result was that it was very, very close. To me that says something in itself and that both sides need to carefully consider why that was the case.

[rgh0]

I'm no expert in American politics by any means. Sitting from afar though despite the pre election polls being promoted as saying Trump didn't have a hope the end result was that it was very, very close. To me that says something in itself and that both sides need to carefully consider why that was the case.

The explanation is quite clear and simple IMHO

1. The structure of the electoral college process favours small rural states that predominately voted for Trump. The general polling you see published does not adequately allow for that. it tends to poll and promote percentage popular vote lead not percentage electoral college lead

2. Despite their best efforts the pollsters struggle to get adequate statistical sampling of pro trump voters particularly in the swing states where combined with 1. due to the attitudes of these people to pollsters

Overall the total popular vote was adequately identified by the polls and the size of this is what pushed Biden to victory. It is the subtly of variation in swing states and in the electoral college system the polls struggle with and why it appeared close for a period. No mystery and no magic and no conspiracy theory needed.

When you have a choice between "conspiracy" or "stuff up" always choose "stuff up" that eliminates a lot of unnecessary debate.

Back to building engines and gearboxes which is what really matters in life

cheers
Rohan

[2cams70]

When you have a choice between "conspiracy" or "stuff up" always choose "stuff up" that eliminates a lot of unnecessary debate.

That's not quite what I meant. What i meant was that the very close election result means that America is clearly a divided nation and that both sides need to carefully consider the other side's point of view.

[rgh0]

Yes I agree that the USA population to a degree ( some but not all) needs to consider each others opinion with much more respect and courteous discussion rather than arguments and demonstrations

[69S4]

Yes I agree that the USA population to a degree ( some but not all) needs to consider each others opinion with much more respect and courteous discussion rather than arguments and demonstrations

The problem is of course that these are all or nothing contests. One side wins and gets everything, the other side loses and gets, well, a place in the unemployment queue. And if the polls are close, like it seems it has been in the US and also a few years ago here over Brexit, with almost zero common ground to build a consensus upon it must inevitably lead to some at least wanting to take direct action. When, subsequent to the election / referendum, almost exactly half of the population are being told 'your views don't count and don't matter' I'm not surprised.

As most of the democrat votes seem to come from the east and west coastal states I'm only surprised that there hasn't yet been a movement to take the central republican voting states out of the union to form a kind of 21st century confederacy. Given where they are something like The Republic Uniting Mountains and Plains might be a suitable name. The acronym shortens quite handily to TRUMP.

[mbell]

Yes I agree that the USA population to a degree ( some but not all) needs to consider each others opinion with much more respect and courteous discussion rather than arguments and demonstrations

I agree but unfortunately the politicians and media have found its in their short term interests to use fear and "us v them" talk as it motivates people to vote and provides some distraction from what they are really up to. Until the politician and media change tactics there not much hope off the general public behavior changing.

Unfortunately, apart from Trump, most politicians aren't paying a price for their behavior. So no real driving force to change, apart from the unlikely chance of some self reflection and change of heart by themselves or by the party leaders to push get a change.

[Hethel_Haus]

Thought I would chime in my two cents perspective on the US election. I think it is pretty apparent to everyone on this website that we are all CAR PEOPLE. Our new President Elect is one of us having owned a '67 Corvette continuously since new. The other President about to leave office probably doesn't even know how to start a car, much less drive one having been pampered his whole life with limousine service. We can argue the finer points of honesty, integrity, and empathy, but in this case, the American people are putting the right guy in the White House!

p.s. - Be considerate of your health care workers everyone and wear a mask!

Joe and his '67 Corvette

[alan.barker]

+1 but now he's President i don't think he is allowed to drive himself on public roads.
Alan

[h20hamelan]

At least its close to BRG

[2cams70]

I think it is pretty apparent to everyone on this website that we are all CAR PEOPLE. Our new President Elect is one of us having owned a '67 Corvette continuously since new.

Let's hope he thinks of us when working on climate policy in that case. I for one would not want to be driving around in an EV converted classic car

[elanfan1]

Start spreading the news. Trump’s leaving today...


https://youtu.be/_VTp-UFxEHA

[h20hamelan]

I probably shouldn’t ask, it seems like scary times

[Bud English]

You're right. You probably shouldn't.