Tariffs!

[alan.barker]

BRAVO HCA,
I fully agree with you. I consider myself as European.
Talking about Fish the UK have been sold a red Herring and have been Kippered by a Liar. Finance is moving and Car Industry.
Alan

[EPC 394J]

This is the first time the idiocy called brexit has hit me in the face so to speak, especially as the subject of tariffs in the news is aimed at the UK !

Yes, tariffs work both ways!

A total of 16 posts. 11 of which are from 3 Brexit ‘critics’ living in France.

If I were you, I’d spend more time lobbying Monsieur Macron so we actually can reach a fair settlement.

If you chaps think the current exchange rate is doing your pensions no good at all. Just wait to see what a ‘no deal’ exit will do to your income. Coincidentally meaning imports from the UK are cheap even for those in the EU with tariffs to pay on them!

[h20hamelan]

Expecting Macron will recover from Covid

[alan.barker]

Macron is not alone and the EU decide together. Even if BoJo wanted to see each Country seperately.
Same for Covid Vaccine starts same day.
Alan

[JimE]

Not 'afraid' of anything! They just want what is rightfully theirs - bear in mind it was the British skippers who sold fishing quotas to the EU skippers way back. The EU skippers just want to make sure they can continue the contract.

It would be akin to you selling me your car, and then say the Lotus Club deciding down the line that ownership of all cars must be under 40 and demanding I give my [your old] car back.

For as long as there is a straw haired liar in there it will go wrong. The UK should be building themselves Free Zone Enterprise areas and ports, and be making London into a tax haven to get back their dominance in world finance. This would frighten Europe, not wagging on about a depleted fish industry that barely supports 12,000 UK people.

The UK will soon have control over who can fish in its waters as it will have left the Common Fisheries Policy. If France want to continue fishing in UK coastal waters they are best advised to accept the UK's terms otherwise they will lose the lot.

[englishmaninwales]

......The UK should be building themselves Free Zone Enterprise areas and ports, and be making London into a tax haven... This would frighten Europe, not wagging on about a depleted fish industry that barely supports 12,000 UK people.

That’s the plan. Of course, as you say, there’s the fish. You’re correct, it’s a tiny, insignificant part of our (and France’s) economy; but as you well know, this is purely of Macron’s own making as he attempts to bolster his waning popularity.
Malcolm

[HCA]

Not 'afraid' of anything! They just want what is rightfully theirs - bear in mind it was the British skippers who sold fishing quotas to the EU skippers way back. The EU skippers just want to make sure they can continue the contract.

It would be akin to you selling me your car, and then say the Lotus Club deciding down the line that ownership of all cars must be under 40 and demanding I give my [your old] car back.

For as long as there is a straw haired liar in there it will go wrong. The UK should be building themselves Free Zone Enterprise areas and ports, and be making London into a tax haven to get back their dominance in world finance. This would frighten Europe, not wagging on about a depleted fish industry that barely supports 12,000 UK people.

The UK will soon have control over who can fish in its waters as it will have left the Common Fisheries Policy. If France want to continue fishing in UK coastal waters they are best advised to accept the UK's terms otherwise they will lose the lot.

And do you think the French fishing chappies are bovvered - especially when the crazy brexit lot has given a contract for policing of shipping in UK waters to a French Government owned organisation
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/ ... ear/13/12/

[alan.barker]

Don't forget Denmark also want a deal for the fishing.
It seems to be blocked with one side offering 30% reduction and the other side wanting 25%.
Wait and see who cracks first
Alan

[HCA]

......The UK should be building themselves Free Zone Enterprise areas and ports, and be making London into a tax haven... This would frighten Europe, not wagging on about a depleted fish industry that barely supports 12,000 UK people.

That’s the plan. Of course, as you say, there’s the fish. You’re correct, it’s a tiny, insignificant part of our (and France’s) economy; but as you well know, this is purely of Macron’s own making as he attempts to bolster his waning popularity.
Malcolm

No it is not! Macron did not sell the quotas within UK waters - Britain did! Macron is only defending the commercial law that must take preference. I thought it well explained in my analagy, but maybe not - here is a more detailed picture. The fact is that the UK do NOT own much of the fishing they are trying to claim back!!
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/1 ... hael-gove/

[alan.barker]

Many thanks HCA,
a real eye opener with facts
Alan

[rgh0]

It helps not confuse wealth redistribution claims from organisations like Greenpeace with government responsibility to allocate and sell quotas in limited resources and how you deal with fish who do not carry a passport and respect national boundaries

In Australia we have a similar debate about access to water rights for irrigation purposes, where the "right" has been historically sold / granted by the various state governments over the last 200 years and how much water this "right" gets you each year now depends on modern scientific studies of water availability in the catchment. We also have the same debates between state governments where the upstream states sell or give away more rights than the catchments can support leaving nothing for the downstream states.

Inevitably in a free capitalistic society whether you like it or not ownership of assets end up largely by the rich as they have the money to invest in these assets which have a financial return. While the capitalistic approach has its issues unfortunately socialistic redistribution of wealth and has even more issues and does not work as has been amply demonstrated over the years.

In reality its a political side show that makes headlines but means little IMHO

cheers
Rohan

[englishmaninwales]

...No it is not! Macron did not sell the quotas within UK waters - Britain did! Macron is only defending the commercial law that must take preference...

I didn’t dispute or say anything about the selling of quotas.
All I said was, in my view, Macron’s intention is to make trouble in this side show to the main negotiation by weaponising the fish, an industry that is worth diddly squat to both sides.
Of course, you are entitled to believe that he is upholding and ‘defending the commercial law.’
I believe he is doing what all politicians do, with an eye to his own popularity for his next election, at the risk of potentially damaging future French exports in other industries to the UK (in the event of a no deal, accidental or otherwise).
IMHO.
Malcolm.

[EPC 394J]

As of the 1st January 2021, the United Kingdom will revert to being an independent sovereign “coastal nation.”

It’s Territorial Waters are then a matter of International Law governed by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. It is for each nation alone to govern access to it’s own waters as it sees fit.

Normally fisheries would be a stand alone negotiation. However the EU have decided to link such access to any Trade Deal. I am not aware that these two issues have ever previously been linked? Certainly Barnier’s earlier offer of a Canada style free trade agreement as a final ‘backstop’ was quietly dropped.

There could be a compromise found somewhere along the line? But it must respect International Law. (See above) Certainly negotiations would have been simplified without this additional complication.

However. Anyone who believes this is, or even should be, all about prioritising trade, totally and utterly fails to understand why the population of the UK voted for Brexit in the first place. (and by all accounts would repeat that result today!) Fishing is so totemic, so fundamental that if misjudged by either side, it certainly has the capacity to result in no immediate trade deal as the UK exits the EU.

Some say there are advantages to a ‘clean break’ exit?

[UAB807F]

Some say there are advantages to a ‘clean break’ exit?

After the antics of the last week or so, I would be in favour of a clean break with "no deal" as everyone puts it. All this continual arguing does is leave the UK in a perpetual state of uncertainty which affects business investment and that has to end.

Make no mistake, trade will continue. Yes, there will be headlines, complaints, predictions of doom and I dare say some areas with supply shortages but.... we already trade with places like the USA on WTO terms and that seems to have worked well enough. And any shortages from EU sources will rapidly be filled from other countries, just wait and see.

The reality is that it's likely that companies already export to both EU and non-EU countries and so are at least aware of the processes involved. The potential for no trade agreement has been headlined for at least 12 months now so I've no sympathy for anyone who says "I don't know what to do" or "I never expected that".

Whether you consider the sticking points to be fish allocations, state subsidies or anything else, it's now clear that negotiating these points whilst still within the EU boundaries isn't going to work. It really is time to walk away and resume talks when we have left.

[englishmaninwales]

Macron’s latest popularity massaging, political stunt of closing the channel crossings to freight (in addition to passenger crossings by sea or air, which IMO is a reasonable step, until the problem could be assessed) is likely to backfire.

This is the sort of action that typifies Macron’s approach to his current relationship with the UK, and in particular, his stance regarding fishing.

Firstly, there will be a lot of very angry French freight drivers currently cooped up on a damp, windy Manston airfield, who will have long memories when they next have an opportunity to dust off their yellow jackets.

Secondly, I understand Covid rules in the European Union / UK require drivers delivering or collecting to remain in their cabs. The shrink wrapped goods are then loaded or unloaded by the warehouse staff. They are then handed the necessary paperwork on departure. This is aimed at maintaining minimum personal contact, and hence spread of SARS-CoV-2.

As seen from news reports, this unnecessary Kent hold up has resulted in the inevitable mixing of drivers. Given the latency from viral infection to positive test and the uncertainty with regard to sensitivity and specificity of the lateral flow test, l believe a significant number of drivers with false negatives will return to France, resulting in further spread of variant SARS-CoV-2. It would have been better to let the freight flow, as it has throughout the pandemic.

(Of course, variant SARS-CoV-2 will be found to be widespread in Europe anyway; it’s just genome testing hasn’t been carried out as widely as it has in the UK).

All IMO, of course.
Malcolm