Lotus Elan

Brake Pads......Carbotech AX6 ?

PostPost by: Grizzly » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:19 pm

Hi all,

I've removed the servo from my road car and have been experimenting with softer pad set up's, currently my favorite fronts are Hawk HP+ pads as they have the right amount of bite with a perfect peddle pressure.

The problem is the brake dust with the HP+ is quite bad and Hawk don't make rears for Elans which means the back feels a little under whelming with the pads i've tried.

So i've had a word with the guy i get my race car brake components from who has suggested Carbotech AX6's all round but no one seems to have any experience with them, so i thought i'd ask if anyone here has them fitted? and what their opinions are?

I understand the softer compounds are always going to dust and it's going to be a trade off for sharp brakes (This car will never be used on track) but these AX6 pads sound a little good to be true.
Chris
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PostPost by: JohnCh » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:34 pm

No experience with the AX6, which is their autocross compound, but I previously ran the XP8 on my Miata when I tracked it and currently run that compound on my Westfield. Although I hate the dust, which is pretty extreme, these pads work very, very well. Fantastic immediate bite, easy to modulate, and work well when cold. Carbotech has been pretty popular in Miata circles over the years, so it might be worth doing some searches on miata.net.

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PostPost by: StressCraxx » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:20 pm

I've been very happy with Porterfield R4-S and R4 compounds for both my Elan and Crossle 25F. They give good life, they are easy on the rotors and minimal dust when used on the road. More dust if autocrossing or track days.

They may not have the pads in stock, but they can make them up for you on order. They do make them for Elan front and rear.

https://www.porterfield-brakes.com/manufacturers/Porterfield+Brakes/R4-S.html

Regards,
Dan
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PostPost by: Ross Robbins » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:42 pm

Hey Dan,

Do you have the exact part number for Elan brake pads in the R4 and R4-S compound? And which is more appropriate for enthusiastic street use but not as crazy hard as track use like you drive?? I looked at the link you included above and there are pads for everything listed there except Elans. I was hoping to appear intelligent when contacting Porterfield but that ship has probably sailed already. :oops:
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:51 pm

It seems the problem i have is the pads i really like (HP+) has the most aggressive bite in the lower temp ranges. What i'm reading would suggest the R4-S sacrifices some of the bite for less dust.

I'm struggling a bit with the Carbotech pads but it sounds like the XP8 are similar to the R4-S and Ax6 are bad for dust (not much about them other than that)
Chris
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PostPost by: JohnCh » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:12 pm

I have gone from the R4-S to the XP8 on two cars and can confirm that the two pads are very far apart in performance and dust. The XP8 has significantly better feel and retardation -- it is not a subtle difference -- but the R4-S is comparatively dust free -- again, not a subtle difference. I have also used the Carbotech 1521 which is their street compound. Dust levels are similar to the R4S, but it has better feel.

To be fair, I have had the R4S on three different cars and really don't like the pad, so I'll admit I'm biased against it. In all three cases the brakes always felt like the rotors were a little glazed. I've never had that feeling with Pagids or any of the Carbotechs.


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PostPost by: StressCraxx » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:03 am

Ross Robbins wrote:Hey Dan,

Do you have the exact part number for Elan brake pads in the R4 and R4-S compound? And which is more appropriate for enthusiastic street use but not as crazy hard as track use like you drive?? I looked at the link you included above and there are pads for everything listed there except Elans. I was hoping to appear intelligent when contacting Porterfield but that ship has probably sailed already. :oops:


Hello Ross,

So you thought you wanted to appear intelligent.....

My apologies to everyone.
Well, I'm feeling pretty embarrassed right now. I looked back in my receipts for the Elan and I could not find a Porterfield invoice. I found I bought several sets of R4 pads for the rear 14LF calipers on my Zink Z10, at least 3 times but no 4S compound pads at all. So apparently my Elan doesn't have R4S pads on it as I originally thought. It likely has the R4 pads on the front, but I have no way to confirm for sure. I usually go through 2 or 3 sets of front pads before I replace the rears. I understand memory is the second thing to go, and I don't remember what's first.

I looked through my Elan parts boxes and found a box that contained genuine Lotus OEM rear pads. Part number on the box is X050J6022Z. So that is the set that's on the rear calipers. I think I may have bought them from Dave Bean or Rich Kamp, longer ago than I thought.

I did find EBC carries both front and rear pads for our Elans on their UK website. The fronts are DP114 and the rears are DP145 for the plain street pads. Compounds range from street pads to full race. https://www.ebcbrakeshop.co.uk/info-brake-parts?make=LOTUS&year=1967&model=Elan&engineSelect=1.6&engine=1.6&bhp=

I called Porterfield today and they advised they carry the front pads but couldn't find a part number for rear pads. So I pulled one of the pads out of the rear caliper, measured it and made tracings of the backing plate and the pad face. I measured the dimensions, added that to the tracing, scanned it and emailed it to Porterfield. They will have a quote for me tomorrow.

Again my apologies.
Regards,
Dan
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PostPost by: prezoom » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:32 pm

I used Porterfield R4 front pads on my race car for quite a number of years with very good results. Matched with cryo treated front discs, disc wear was significantly reduced. While good for the race car, I am not sure how the would be on the street. The Elan is lighter than the former race car, but the Plus2 is a bit heavier. may try a set.

Dan, what compound is Porterfield using on the rear pads? I never throw away the old rear backings, if they are using a hard enough pad, I may be interested.
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PostPost by: StressCraxx » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:52 pm

prezoom wrote:I used Porterfield R4 front pads on my race car for quite a number of years with very good results. Matched with cryo treated front discs, disc wear was significantly reduced. While good for the race car, I am not sure how the would be on the street. The Elan is lighter than the former race car, but the Plus2 is a bit heavier. may try a set.

Dan, what compound is Porterfield using on the rear pads? I never throw away the old rear backings, if they are using a hard enough pad, I may be interested.


Zoom, I have always had my rotors cryotreated and I agree, they last much longer and it seems to reduce the heat damage. (Edit) I put cryotreated rotors on my wife's Honda Accord. She is harder on brakes than anyone I know. As long as I catch the pads before they are completely gone we are good.

I spoke with Tim Gray @ Porterfield this morning further about the rear pads.

Porterfield will make pads in any of their available compounds R4, R4-1, R4S, plus other manufacturers' compounds such as Raybestos, Performance Friction, etc. So if you have a favorite pad compound, ask them if they can make them up for you. I'm having a set made with the R4S compound, front and rear. I no longer do track days in my Elan since it has no roll bar. I do autocross it, but my favorite activity is a blat around the winding back roads of the SF bay area(while obeying traffic laws and driving courteously of course).

Tim advised they can also increase the pad area to the edge of the backing plate if desired. I requested the pad area of the OEM Lotus pads. Tim Gray's phone # +1 949-548-4470 US toll free 800-537-6842. They ship worldwide.

Regards,
Dan
Last edited by StressCraxx on Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:27 am

Interesting....... it hadn't crossed my mind some one other than Hawk could make a set up with a Hp+ compound.


Thanks for that.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:30 am

Have you ever tried Carbone Lorraine RC6 for track work? they are my current pad of choice for my time attack car.
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PostPost by: prezoom » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:17 am

Thanks Dan, Thought I might try something on the hard side. Just soft enough to hold the car on a slope with the help of the car being in gear. Might cut the wear factor down. Lots of good roads in the mountains east of me. In fact, the San Diego Chapter of the GGLC will be having a drive in a week.
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PostPost by: StressCraxx » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:13 am

prezoom wrote:Thanks Dan, Thought I might try something on the hard side. Just soft enough to hold the car on a slope with the help of the car being in gear. Might cut the wear factor down. Lots of good roads in the mountains east of me. In fact, the San Diego Chapter of the GGLC will be having a drive in a week.


They could probably re-pad your handbrake pads, but I was talking about the rear brake pads. JAE and Bean sell the Elan handbrake pads already.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:44 am

I have found with modern tyres grip and the resultant increased weight transfer under braking that the rear wheels in an Elan are over braked if you use the same pad compound front and rear. I balance my Elan by using a relatively low coefficient Ferodo FR6 rear compound with the medium to high coefficent Hawk blue 9012 compound.on the front. An alternative is to use a brake balance pressure control valve.

I used Porterfield R4 for a couple of years on the Elan fronts but I experienced very high disk and pad wear due to high temperatures when racing and the pad material cracked badly. The Porterfields worked well while cold but did not like the heat in racing in my Elan.. They worked better on my friend S4 7 which is lighter and has better brake ventilation with its body style.

The Hawk blue 9012 cant be used on a road car as they are very abrasive until hot on the track. But when hot the disk wear is low

On my road Plus 2 i use standard compound rear pads and Ferodo DS2500 front pads which balance well

cheers
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:41 pm

Rohan if only i had read that earlier....... I have just bought a pair of AX6 rear pads (only ones they had on the shelf and very similar compound to the HP+ on paper) now as you say my car is feeling a bit too much at the back.

So for safety i'm back to EBC green's in the back, at least now the front lock up before the back.

The bias valve may not be a bad suggestion, the weather here is starting to close in so this might get put on a back burner until the roads are better.
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