Lotus Elan

Oversteer on corners

PostPost by: JonB » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:40 am

Let me just say that all suggestions offered have been received gratefully. It's just a matter of working through them from the easiest to the hardest in the limited time I have available.

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PostPost by: rgh0 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:55 am

JonB wrote:
To be honest, I'm not entirely clear on how this should be done. Should it be drilled at the point where the spindle touches the tube (this would damage the inner edge of the tube) or in the centre of the spindle but at an angle, so that the drill hole intersects the area where the spindle touches the tube, inboard of the tube's end? The problem with this is there is a danger I may drill through the tube.


I would drill through the tube wall just outside where the tube is welded to the chassis at right angles into the tube until you reach the pin depth. The hole is small and will not weaken the tube at that point. tap the hole and fit a grease nipple and pump in using a suitable grease gun the atf/acetone under pressure. Do this on both sides of the tube just before where it meets the chassis weld.. Repeat pumping in the fluid until you see it coming out the ends of the tube indicating you have pushed it through between the tube and the pin in both directions.

if then a properly welded on nut does not allow the pin to be turned and tapped out then you need to try to drill out the pin.

Excessively heating the pin and tube risks welding the pin to the tube, getting the tube cherry red is excessive IMHO to try to break a rust bond and may result in the tube and pin pressure welding together for ever as the outer tube will cool and shrink faster when the heat is removed than the inner pin resulting in a high compressive load on cooling :(

If what I say is not understood then just ask
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:57 am

JonB wrote: Thanks for the offer to borrow Toad, it's quite a drive to get here (1hr 45 mins if Google is to be believed), is the old fellow up to it?


That's rather personal!
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:02 pm

rgh0 wrote:I would drill through the tube wall just outside where the tube is welded to the chassis at right angles into the tube until you reach the pin depth. Rohan



Just out of interest Rohan. I would be tempted to drill at an angle straight through weld / support into the pin. This would give more metal for the grease nipple thread and get the fluid nearer the centre.

Any particular reason why not?
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:14 pm

Just trying not to put a hole into the vacuum chamber. If you drilled at the right angle it would be OK

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PostPost by: pauljones » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:56 pm

Jon

Had another look at mine today. In another unheated garage. My ships thermometer says 4 below.

Anyway, would it be possible to grind of the welds holding the boss (both sides), and extract the unit as a whole. As it appears to be a thick walled tube, once you have split the offending items then its a case of re welding back in situ. All you have to do is ensure your carefull in grinding of the welds.

I hear the other comments, i understand the drilling tapping etc but does that really solve the issue, yes it may work to remove it, but how will it effect it on rebuild. If its caked in rust on the inside then that needs rectification too.
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PostPost by: JonB » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:00 pm

vincereynard wrote:
JonB wrote: Thanks for the offer to borrow Toad, it's quite a drive to get here (1hr 45 mins if Google is to be believed), is the old fellow up to it?


That's rather personal!


I said Toad, not todger!
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PostPost by: seniorchristo » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:04 pm

Hi Jon
Getting back to heating the spindle. Here in the US there are two types of gas for the little torches I think you are using. MAPP gas is available and only a little more expensive than the butane (?) that comes standard. MAPP gas makes a flame which is hotter than butane. I would exhaust this possibility because it is the simplest, least expensive I've seen. Having two people heating the spindle from both sides would definitely help. Even if you continue with the penetrating solution, extreme heating of the spindle might enhance the flow. :)
Best of Luck!
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PostPost by: JonB » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:07 pm

pauljones wrote:Jon

Had another look at mine today. In another unheated garage. My ships thermometer says 4 below.

Anyway, would it be possible to grind of the welds holding the boss (both sides), and extract the unit as a whole. As it appears to be a thick walled tube, once you have split the offending items then its a case of re welding back in situ. All you have to do is ensure your carefull in grinding of the welds.

I hear the other comments, i understand the drilling tapping etc but does that really solve the issue, yes it may work to remove it, but how will it effect it on rebuild. If its caked in rust on the inside then that needs rectification too.


That is an interesting idea. The tube is welded to an oval shaped piece (a gusset?) which is in turn welded to the cross member. I do not know how thick the gusset is but it sounds like a reasonable idea. The main problem would be access, as the angle grinder is relatively large given the space available and the need to go all round the weld on both sides. But if done really carefully, I can see it working; moreover, I wouldn't necessarily need a jig to get the tube back in as the holes would already be lined up.

There is a risk though - if each gusset is welded to the tube on both sides (of the gusset), it won't work as I will not be able to get a grinder inside the crossmember.

Here's a crappy picture to explain it for anyone that has not seen a Spyder chassis close up. You might want to click on it to get a higher resolution image.

gusset.jpg and
Close up of the gusset, tube and cut-off spindle


The yellow oval shows the path of the gusset to cross member weld. The green curved line shows the gusset to tube weld. My point is that if it is also welded behind the gusset, grinding the front facing weld alone won't work.

I wonder if a Dremel could be used here? Probably not tough enough...
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PostPost by: pauljones » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:02 pm

Jon.

Thats same as mine. The green circle welds on yours looks much better than mine. Is the gussett a strengthening plate to take some the streeses?

Im sure with a bit of care you could grind them off, access may be an issue with a big grinder but a smaller one should fit. Dremell should achieve the same, ive used a cheap version to cut n grind welds.

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PostPost by: vincereynard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:44 pm

JonB wrote:
pauljones wrote:Jon
Anyway, would it be possible to grind of the welds holding the boss (both sides), and extract the unit as a whole. As it appears to be a thick walled tube, once you have split the offending items then its a case of re welding back in situ. All you have to do is ensure your carefull in grinding of the welds.


That is an interesting idea. The tube is welded to an oval shaped piece (a gusset?) which is in turn welded to the cross member. I do not know how thick the gusset is but it sounds like a reasonable idea. The main problem would be access, as the angle grinder is relatively large given the space available and the need to go all round the weld on both sides. But if done really carefully, I can see it working; moreover, I wouldn't necessarily need a jig to get the tube back in as the holes would already be lined up.



I suggested that last week -
vincereynard wrote:If the spindle is bent, quite probably so is the support tube inside the box. I don't see you have much option other than to use an angle grinder to cut away where spindle support tube is welded to the frame and remove the lot. Spindle and tube. Get a new tube and have a competent welded tack in place.


I think you are becoming inundated with well meaning advice Jon. Time to back off and make a plan of easiest first. Creep up on the bludger.
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PostPost by: Craven » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:48 pm

If you decide to remove the spindle/ tube from the chassis make up an alignment jig first, use the top spindles as a reference point. Weld back in using the new spindle mounted in the tube held in the jig. Perhaps Spyder can supply a new tube plus suitable gussets.
A Dremell is well up to the job.
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PostPost by: JonB » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:51 pm

Indeed, Vince.

I recall that when I read your suggestion I thought about removing the gusset. Which would mean I'd need a jig to re-install - which is why I didn't follow it up.
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PostPost by: Bigbaldybloke » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:26 pm

Jon, I?ve been leaving you in piece, but a suggestion if you are going to try to grind through the welds. Is access possible with an angle drive and a hole saw. You?d need a hole saw that just fitted over the outside of the spindle and not use the pilot drill on the hole saw. Just a thought, good luck, I?ll leave you in peace again and get on with my own jobs, tank breather system and radio speaker installation, much easier than your current nightmare task!
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PostPost by: JonB » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:43 pm

Bigbaldybloke wrote:Jon, I?ve been leaving you in piece, but a suggestion if you are going to try to grind through the welds. Is access possible with an angle drive and a hole saw. You?d need a hole saw that just fitted over the outside of the spindle and not use the pilot drill on the hole saw. Just a thought, good luck, I?ll leave you in peace again and get on with my own jobs, tank breather system and radio speaker installation, much easier than your current nightmare task!


Heh. It's a nightmare right up to the point you hear that <crack!> and it gives way. Then it's an euphoric sense of relief!

Ah hole saw as one might use on woodwork. What an interesting idea! Yes, possible with an angled end to the drill (which I don't posses). I would need one that was thin and strong enough to go through the weld. Hmm, let me see what is available.

Edit: Maybe this one, in the right diameter: https://www.starrett.co.uk/shop/power_t ... s/deepcut/

The video shows it cutting through some pretty thick steel.
Last edited by JonB on Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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