Ethanol In Petrol

[trw99]

There has been some discussion on the subject of ethanol levels in petrol on the forum in the past.

Here was a recent thread in which Rohan gave a knowledgeable opinion: elan-f15/petrol-gasoline-issue-for-classic-cars-t18392.html

I have just come across an interesting article by Zach Merrill of the Foothills British Car Club of South Carolina. It is here: http://www.fbccsc.org/newsletters/fbcc_ ... _feb10.pdf

I have reproduced it below to save you the bother of clicking onto the link. I have only a sketchy idea of the current situation in the UK, but understand that we shall shortly be increasing ethanol content in our petrol from 5% to 10% (E5 to E10). On the face of it we may not have too much to worry about, unless we do not run our cars regularly. However, this is clearly a subject we all need to be aware of. Does anyone else have any clearer idea of what is likely to happen in the near future?

"Living with a Tipsy Classic Or Your LBC and Ethanol

In my youth, my father ran a wrecker service. As a result of my exposure to that sometimes-dreadful business, witnessing other people's hard learned lessons convinced me that mixing alcohol and automobiles can lead to unfortunate consequences. That truism has never been truer than it is today. Until recently, it was only the operator who sometimes disastrously opted to imbibe. These days, our legislative officials have seen fit to force alcohol on our machinery as well. It is very difficult to avoid being forced to be a consumer of 10% ethanol mixed with 90% gasoline. In ordinary operation in a modern vehicle, other than a slight degradation in fuel economy, the evil brew yields little to complain about. In vintage vehicles, small engines, and marine craft, however, it can be another matter entirely. Modern fuel injected vehicles with high-pressure fuel systems and feedback-loop fuel management can generally burn10% ethanol and be content. The fuel system samples the O2output in the exhaust, richens the mixture a sniff and goes on about its day.

Use 10% ?ethanol enhanced? gasoline (hereafter referred to as E10) in carbureted engine with no O2 feedback, and the scenario likely won?t play out quite as well. Toss in the additional issue of an atmospherically-ventilated fuel system combined with infrequent use, and you have the making of a very unhappy experience. Even in the best of circumstances, a vintage carbureted engine running on E10is compromised. If the fuel/air mixture had been optimized for gasoline, it will be a sniff lean on E10. True enough, the mixture can be re calibrated if someone knows how to do it and then actually follows through. Expect to lose about 7%(ish) fuel economy though and expect the engine to have some issues without weather drive-ability, but it will generally run more or less OK. There are some real potential issues with attack of rubber polymers and there is a risk of crud being dislodged and causing clogging. Still, most old cars sort of-almost-nearly run OK most of the time on E10 if the engine is operated regularly and the fuel is not allowed to age more than a few weeks.

Aging is a really bad thing. I am reminded with each look in the mirror, but even I age well compared to E10. Ethanol has major affinity for moisture. Store E10 in a modern vehicle with a sealed (not atmospherically vented) fuel system, and it still only stays fresh about 12 weeks. Put E10 in your vintage classic with its vented fuel system, and within a mere month, the fuel is no longer fresh. Leave the fuel in the tank just a few months, and you are facing disaster. The alcohol absorbs moisture from the air. The fuel experiences phase change. The moisture laden alcohol separates from the gas and settles to the bottom. It becomes highly corrosive. As if that were not bad enough, the remaining gasoline has very poor octane and the whole miserable concoction has a terrible tendency toward oxidation. Good old-fashioned red Sta-bil helps retard the oxidation, but it does not help with the moisture absorption and the phase change issue. For emphasis, let me remind you this moisture absorption happens because the alcohol sucks the moisture right out of the air and this condition occurs readily if the fuel is contained in a vented tank and/or fuel bowl (as is the case with vintage cars, boats built prior to1977, and most small engines.)

Until recently, I did not know of any off-the-shelf product that solves the problem. Today, however, I discovered ?Sta-bil Marine Formula? for ethanol fuels. Finally, there is hope! I spoke with a chemist at the company. I have been assured that if ?Sta-bil Marine Formula ?is added properly to E10, the fuel will remain fresh for 12 months. The chemistry in the blue Sta-bil (not the red Sta-bil) addresses both the oxidation issue and the moisture absorption issue. There?d stuff still works fine if the fuel is stored in a sealed container...but such is not the case in the fuel tank of most vintage cars. Be aware and be happy that there is now a solution....but do nothing, and prepare to be sad."

Tim

[bill308]

I live in the north east USA and we've been forced to use this stuff for quit a few years now. Proper tuning helps every day running but when I put my 308 to bed for the winter, I make sure I have a low fuel tank and run the carbs dry. I do this with my garden equipment too. Landscapers report a lot of difficulties with their equipment. My Elan has not been affected only because it hasn't been on the road in many years. When it is back on the road, I will be sure to take precautions. Your post with regard to ?Sta-bil Marine Formula? is much appreciated.

Bill

[m750rider]

Here in the southeast US we have had up to 10% ethanol in gasoline for quite some time and from my personal experience it is not anywhere near as bad as the included article presents. I usually do not drive the car much between December and March, it is stored inside in my basement, I have used Sta-bil at times but not always, and I don't typically empty the tank or floats during storage. I have had no issues with corrosion, leaks, fuel lines, starting after sitting, or performance.

Yes the oxygen in the ethanol will make the engine run leaner. Adjustable easily. I would prefer that it not have ethanol, if only for the mileage boost, but I still get over 30 mpg. Performance is fine. It's not that big a deal. Simple solution is to drive the car instead of letting it be a garage queen.

By the way, I've owned the car since 1972 so I remember the days when I filled it up with leaded Sunoco 260.

[prezoom]

In Southern California, we have been on E10 for a long time. My car has not been operated at times for several months, with no ill effects when re-statred. However, it is much happier with a fresh tank of fuel.

That said, I recently assisted in getting a 330 Ferrari re-started after a prolonged period of sitting in the garage. Almost every jet was plugged with something or another. After soaking the jets in a carb cleaner and using soft bristles from a brush, along with a dental floss type pic on the E-tubes, we were able to get all 12 cylinders up and running. After driving the car, it will need more work to make it run like it should.

The last time I checked, there was a fueling station about 10 miles away, in a high-end community, that offers 100 plus octane non-lead direct from the pump. Lots of old Ferraris, Masers, Cobras, etc., that like good fuel. Priced accordingly, your mileage may vary, etc., but have not tried it. Various high test non-leaded fuels are available from any of the race tracks in the area that sell fuel. Not sure of their ethanol content. Anyone can purchase. Just read that some of the non-lead fuels used by Spec Miatas, now can exceed $40 per gallon, offering a performance advantage of up to 6%, depending on tune. Leaded fuels are also available at race tracks and various race shops in the area. No ban instuted yet, but most likely coming in the future. Again, anyone can buy.

Rob Walker
26-4889

[rcraven]

Sorry if I've missed some already existing discussion on this, but I've been reading on other car forums of aluminium fuel tanks being attacked by fuel containing high percentages of ethanol. Does anyone have any experience of this?
This site has some information, but on the one hand says aluminium is OK with ethanol fuel and then says it may not be OK with E100 fuel: http://fbhvc.co.uk/bio-fuels/

[trw99]

Further update on the introduction of E10 to the UK in 2012 here: http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default ... ryId=24900

That page includes a link to car makers and their recommendations for their engines. Lotus is not on the list, of course!

Tim

[elansprint71]

............ Lotus is not on the list, of course!

Tim

Neither is Proton, so this affects the Elise girls too.

This might be a daft question (for a change) but is it possible to get tanked-up at the local flying club? I'd be surprised if the chaps who run Tiger Moths etc. have this sort of dilemma.

[DavidLB]

using Avas Gas on the road is illegal, also 100LL which is avgas at the moment is also supposed to be phased out soon, who knows what will happen as light aircraft engines are pretty old technology, also water in the fuel presents rather more of a problem in the air, .interesting times with fuel I hesitate to call it petrol any more this modern stuff has totally different qualities from the old 100 octane petrol that our engines were designed for.

[zeteclotus]

I think in the future if the fuel gets really bad I might just convert the elan to LPG. using 4 LPG carbs or an LPG injection system.

You can get some quite good performance out of a modern LPG system.

I think it will run better on propane than modern petrol.

What do you think?

I converted an XJS about 11 years ago and that still runs well.

Has anyone come across a twin cam on LPG?

[elansprint71]

I suppose the front cross-member could be converted to an aux LPG tank?

Will a twin-cam run on absinthe? I imagine the smell would be even better than Castrol R..... and it's probably cheaper than pump fuel too.

[Rob_LaMoreaux]

Having used E10, 110 Octane (RM/2) leaded and 103 Octane (RM/2) No lead in my Elan, as well as working in the engine development industry for 11 years (developing engine test equipment), I have yet to see the nasty worst case scenario this article claims. I have seen and heard of seals deteriorating and with E85 there is the very real risk of metal corrosion, but this is not the case with E10. The biggest change you will notice is the need to adjust the carbs for the lower energy and higher octane of E10.

As for carbs getting gunked up when left to sit, that in some ways was much worse before E10. All fuel will leave nasty residues if left to slowly evaporate as the old motorcycle I had for a while showed. It took a LOT of cleaning to get all the gunk out of it's carbs.

The E15 we may be soon forced to use in the USA may be more of a problem for older vehicles since it is getting closer to the point where a bit of sitting will increase the conentration to the point where corrosion is a problem. I have yet to see data on this in older cars though.

Like the No Lead scares (you DON'T need lead in an Elan) this is one more of a fear of the unknown issue than a real issue. E85 would be a real issue though. I will try to get a chance to do some more research in SAE papers, and talking to my father in law who has worked in engine development for 40 years while running his 1969 Alfa GTA junior on modern pump gas (including E10).

Rob

[prezoom]

Ethanol use here in the states as a fuel additive may be getting interesting. Read in the morning paper, government subsidies for corn based ethanol production have been eliminated. According to the article, the benefits to the environment from using ethanol were not proven. And the switch to non-food based corn has driven up the price of edible corn.

When I could not get my Elan out of the garage for several months because of ongoing construction, I added a fuel stabilizer to a fresh tank of fuel before parking parking the car. When I could get it out of the garage, and could start driving the car again, once fuel pressure was achieved, the engine fired after just a couple of turns.

I did notice what I thought was a bit of hesitation from the old fuel, and at a half a tank, I add some new gas. With that, it started running like its old self again. My steel gas tank has been internally coated with a rust proofing product. So far, I have had little or no problems with E10. The fuel filter, located before the carburetors, has shown no sign of debris for the past 5 years. Knock on wood.

Rob Walker
26-4889

[StressCraxx]

As others have said, we have had ethanol, methanol, and MTBE (Methyl tertiary butyl ether) additives here in the US since the early 90's. I used to work in an oil refinery and was well familiar with all of the additives. I had a plugged fuel filter earlier this year and pulled the tank as a precaution. Inside my tank is bare steel. There is absolutely no sign of corrosion at all.

The fuel stabilizers such as Stabil and SeaFoam help keep the more volatile components of the fuel for a longer period of time. Running the tank down and refilling with fresh gas puts you back in business for some fun.