bad, dangerous problem starting??

[chicagojeff]

So I havent started the car in a week or so, and it's been cold. I pumped the gas, put on the choke a little (Delorttos), and my Elan S3 wouldn't start. The starter motor, which is a lucas, was just not spinning fast enough. Okay, so I am used to that. Then, it got jammed. Okay, used to that too. After I tried to rock it free, which didnt work, the next time I turned it over, there was a distinct cyclical click-click-click (sounding a little like dragging a stick across a picket fence) and still no start.

Then, and here is where I am worried, I smell something burning. See some smoke from under the hood. And one more try of the ignition and I see a flame. Done. Not trying it again.

Ideas? Did I burn out the starter motor (not so bad since I was going to get a Gufstafson anyway) or is this frying the wiring harness or iginition which is electronic now, or worse, is this some kind of serious fire hazard, next time I attempt to start?

thanks for any advice. Jeff in Chicago

[alaric]

The smoke and flames sound scary.

I managed to burn out a starter motor this summer while testing my twincam out of the car. I'd rigged up a temporary wiring link to it, and basically the engine turned over fine with the spark plugs out, but with them in there was not enough power getting to the starter motor to turn it over. While stalled, the motor shorted and made a horrible smell and lots of smoke.

My conclusion was that my temporary wiring had too high a volt drop across it when running the motor, so the volts across the motor were too low. When a DC motor is running correctly, there's a back emf, so the actual current taken is lower than when the motor is stalled. So, if you stall the motor, the current can be a lot higher than when it's running normally. In my case, I tried once to often with the motor stalling, and it went puff!

I replaced the motor and wired it up with the loom from the car - it's all in bits - and it worked fine. I've since popped in a pre-engaged starter motor from Paul Matty, which is fantastic! Not cheap, but nice not to have that heavy clunk when you start cranking. It also delivers more torque.

I'd suggest that you've overloaded the loom by stalling the motor, and that you should check the resistance of the loom etc before trying again - with a new starter motor; make sure that you've not damaged the loom. Sounds like your starter motor needed a bit of grease on the gearing, and that it got stiffer while left standing. Has your rubber boot split or the metal insert in front of the starter motor corroded? Also maybe the connections got damp.

Try cranking without the spark plugs in first, as this will reduce the chance of stalling if there's still a weak circuit.

Hope this helps.

Sean.

[nebogipfel]

Jeff, Do you have an airbox on the carbs? If you haven't you should! A backfire/spit out of the carbs would explain the smoke/flame. This has caused quite a few Elans to burn!

On the starting problem, it is vital that you have a really good earth (ground) from the starter motor to the battery so that the starter has maximum current for cranking. A very good mod' is to run a proper earth lead from the vicinity of the starter motor back to the battery and not to assume the chassis connections are making a good earth return

The click click click sounds like the starter solenoid clicking in and out and would usually indicate low battery, duff motor or inadequate battery or earth connections. You shouldn't cause any problems in the wiring loom because the only wire carrying heavy current is the thick one from solenoid to starter motor and the battery and earth leads.

Despite popular opinion, if the starter motor and battery are in good condition and the earths are clean and of good heavy copper wire the standard Elan starting set-up should be quite capable of starting the car without problems.

If your motor jams regularly it is likely that the pinion gear on the motor and or the flywheel ring gear are worn

It sounds like you need to go back to basics

[chicagojeff]

Thanks to both of you...sounds like I got the exact same burnout that Sean describes from too low of voltage, due to a weak ground, or just damp connections from the damp weather (English?) we're having.

I guess since this thing has been jamming all summer, I should bite the bullet and get a new reduction starter anyway. then seems like the order is to put on a new starter motor, check the wiring loom, check or run new grounds, and then try again.


I do have the stock airbox in the carbs, so I'm not too worried about the flame...my guess is that the voltage imbalance caused an arc somewhere and that is the puff of flame I saw.

thanks all. Jeff

[chicagojeff]

Oh, and one more thing I remember...

when I unscrewed the battery quick-release I noticed it was warm, which of course, shouldn't be...so the voltage explanation and subsequent burn-out makes a lot of sense!

I think John, you are right, that the wiring loom itself couldn't be affected (at least not directly.) At least I hope...

jeff

[gjz30075]

Jeff, once you get the starter problem sorted, you might want to look at your starting procedures. Shouldn't have to pump the gas AND pull the choke. A few pumps on the gas should do it. If its been sitting awhile, the starter going to be working for awhile to get fuel up, so its good to get that fixed.

[type26owner]

Jeff,
Chances are you've got a shorted armature in the starter. Replace it ASAP. You can fry the wiring loom. Most batteries when dead shorted can put out 200+ amps. Unless you know exactly what you're doing you should get some professional help about now.

[Dave-M]

Back to basics.
1) remove battery earth in boot
2) remove chassis to body bolt in boot
3) clean chassis to bright metal
4) re-fit bolt
5) clean earth lead connection and re-fit to chassis bolt ensuring body to chassis bolt does not slacken
6) remove connections at solenoid clean and re-fit

Problem solved (hopefully)

I use my +2 as a daily driver and find that the connection to earth in the boot is a regular cause of the problem you describe at around six monthly intervals. The tendency to corrode the connection under the chassis is the problem. The nut in the boot will appear secure and holding the earth strap tight but the electrical connection is not adequate.
Hope it is as simple as this. It is worth a try
Regards
Dave

[type26owner]

Hey Guys,
When it's a bad ground the current does not flow and you don't get smoke and flames. I once had the battery cable right by the starter short out from rubbing against the chassis and it cut through the insulation. It melted through the lead cable connector on the battery and luckily opened up the circuit in about one second and isolated the battery. It was one of those brown stain events! Those wires leading down to the starter are armored with extra insulation now.

[Dave-M]

When it's a failed ground current does not flow. When it's a bad ground current does flow and heat is generated at the bad ground. This can ignite any contamination from oil/ dirt or even the insulation on the wire in a bad case.
As it costs nothing but time it has got to be worth checking.
Dave-M

[twincamman]

I m betting on a poor connection on the main starter lead ----tighten the bolt on the conection clean it and try again -or the starter its self is loose --its no fun if you dont set the car on fire once in a while --ed

[alaric]

I reckon that if the motor was stalled then a lot of current would have been flowing.

You can have a low resistance in the connections, as measured with a DVM when no large current is flowing, but a small resistance might be enough to drop the power so that the motor stalls. i.e. V=IR, so with a large I, there's a reasonable V dropped across the connection, thus Vbattery - Vjoint = Vmotor. I think the power from the motor is proportional to the square of the voltage across the motor.

When the motor is stalled it's short out time since there's no back emf. The motor will be designed to take high current while the back emf builds up, but will fry if stalled, due to the heating of the wiring.

I'd take the starter motor out and try it on the bench if I were you. I found that I could get my fried starter motor to work when free running, but depending on where it had stopped, it wouldn't run - i.e. one of the windings in the motor was toast. When back in the engine it failed to turn it again.

Sean.

[1964 S1]

Unhook a battery cable [does it matter which one?] and leave it that way until you solve this problem. (I melted a quick unscrew type terminal just trying to start my +2 last winter.) Hook the cable back up only during trouble shooting and after reading this one it looks like you've got a lotta trouble to shoot at... I think... ditch the "jamming" original starter, get the reduction model... If you're going to try and drive the car every once in a while in the Chicago winters I suggest cranking it over two or three times briefly, getting the oil pressure up, then, squirt some starter fluid in the carbs (this may involve drilling a small hole in your airbox for squirting while holding the throttle open), start the car and let it idle a bit before driving. Not a jump in and go proposition. With an everyday driver there's a whale of a difference in the way they start up, almost clickover and go, but hey, you're in Chicago, it's not your everyday transport, it's old and you intelligently appreciate what you have! Where did you see a flame? Merry Christmas chicagojeff

[chicagojeff]

thanks to all...I will figure this out in a couple of weeks when I return from vacation. but meanwhile am going to order the new starter motor...damp, but still limited grounding I think was the problem which led to the burn, but the starter sucked anyway.

One last question...does anyone think that push-starting this is a bad idea? The reason is that it's going to the shop for some other work, but now will have to be towed if I don't drive it...I guess it depends if there was any other damage to the electrical loom--If none, and if the crapped out starter is still connected I presume this would still cause a voltage drop and still be a bad idea, but thinking what if any damage I would do if the starter was not connected and the loom looked okay. Any other suggestions are welcome...

merry christmas and happy new year to all!
Jeff

[twincamman]

as the main distribution of power is from your starter connection you may have a problem bump starting it if the main lead is off ---one more tip remove the starter and clean the shaft of any rust or dirt then relubricate with tranny fluid and be sure the bendex moves freely on said shaft -----ed