Lotus Elan

Pace wet sump oil pump

PostPost by: 2cams70 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:09 pm

Hi Guys,

Glad to report that the engine rebuild is now back on track and progressing well. I'm currently deciding what oil pump to fit. I stumbled upon this one in the Burton catalog which on the face of it would appear to be ideal for a wet sump engine. It has adjustable PRV and 20% higher flow capacity.

http://www.burtonpower.com/catalogsearc ... =pace+dsp5

Based on what I'm seeing and hearing I'd rather fit this pump rather than one based on a reproduction Ford pump. All these reproduction pumps would appear to come from the same supplier - probably somewhere in China regardless of who the agent is. The pattern HP/HC one supplied supplied by Burton's is not recommended by them for use over 7000RPM so it would appear to be about as useful as a boat anchor! For over 7000RPM, if you are using a pattern pump, they recommend the HP one only and not the HP/HC one. QED only offer standard pressure and HP pattern pumps only and not the HP/HC version so I'm definitely smelling a rat when it comes to the quality of these pumps.

I'm thinking my best choices are either the Pace wet sump pump or a new old stock genuine Ford one perhaps with an uprated PRV spring fitted. My engine is all steel so I want to up the oil pressure a bit for piece of mind.

What do you guys think and has anyone had any experience with the Pace wet sump pump?

Regards
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:30 pm

The Pace pump looks like an interesting design that provides increased flow capacity similar to a normal high capacity pump but also an easily adjustable relief valve setting and integral porting for an oil cooler but it comes at a price ! :shock: . The normal HP / HC pump requires a spring change or shimming to do any relief pressure change and a sandwich plate for the cooler. Whether the Pace design or construction is better than the current HP/HC pumps is hard to tell without closer examination of the actual product and i cant afford to buy one just to have a look as much as i would like to :D

As to whether you need a high capacity or high pressure pump of any design on your particular engine and its application is another question all together and requires some basic engineering understanding of how oil pumps work and how engines are lubricated and how this is affected by modifying a twin cam for more power and more revs and race use. That is a long and complex response with a lot of ifs and buts and maybes and i will leave that one for now.

Why Burtons don't recommend the use of the normal HP/HC pump above 7000 rpm is another interesting question - - have you asked them / and do they have a rational answer ? I know this pump can develop a crack in its mounting flanges when used at high revs especially with a sandwich plate on it. It appears that the vibration in the engine nose at high revs combined with the extra weight compared to the standard pump is the cause. The problem can be solved by eliminating the standard paper gasket which enables the pump to flex on its mounting bolts and crack. I mount the pump using Loctite anaerobic rigid gasket former and don't have the problem any more but maybe Burton's and others don't know that solution.

cheers
Rohan
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:45 pm

Thanks Rohan. I did try to quiz Burton's a bit further about the HP/HC pump limitation but I didn't really get a meaningful answer. The issue is probably as you said. I know the Pace pump is expensive but this is a once only Lotus engine build for me and I'm asking the question now because I'm watching the GBP versus $AU very carefully at the moment given the current developments in the UK !
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
1980 Ford Escort 2.0 Ghia
Peugeot 505 GTI Wagons (5spdx1) (Autox1)
2015 Honda City 5spd.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:47 pm

Now is the time to buy :)

cheers
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:48 pm

Happy to discuss further what pump capacity and pressure you need depending on what engine build and application you are planning

cheers
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:27 pm

Hi Rohan,

The engine is actually pretty mild. It's running Q420 camshafts so maximum power is supposedly 145-150HP at 6,500 RPM and with a nearly flat torque curve from 4,500 to 6,500 RPM. I have a copy of the torque curve from QED and it's pretty much ideal for a road engine - mind you I'll probably be knocking off a few of those BHP by running a HP oil pump and race valve springs! It's running sprint sized inlet valves, 10.5:1 compression and ports have been mildly cleaned up.

Bottom end is belts and braces standard stroke with 84mm bore. Steel caps, steel rods, 8 counterweight steel crankshaft. Flywheel is standard pattern but steel. Bearing clearances have been set .002" for both mains and big ends. Yes it was expensive and probably overkill. If the engine just had a standard bottom end I wouldn't be so fussed about the oil pump. The pace pump is attractive because I could just run the pump at standard pressure when using the car as a grocery getter but then easily tweak it up a bit when using it on the track or giving the engine a bit of a spin! Come to think of it I'm surprised new cars don't have electronically adjustable oil pump PRV valves to save a bit of power when high pressure is not required.

By the way, my Saenz rods finally arrived after quite a long wait and I must say that I'm very impressed. It's clear that a bit of thinking has gone into their design. There is subtle reinforcement on the flanks of the H-section and extra thickness around the cap parting line which you don't normally see. Total weight is 527g per rod in 4.800" wide journal spec. Not sure how that compares with Carillo's, etc - would be interested to know as it seems to be hard to extract that kind of information from conrod makers. They were checked for balance and were perfect out of the box. Made in Argentina too which is not a country one would normally associate with high precision race engineering! They also make sequential shift transmissions for race cars. Pictures of the rods are attached for reference.

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1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:23 pm

2cams70 wrote: I did try to quiz Burton's a bit further about the HP/HC pump limitation but I didn't really get a meaningful answer.


I believe their HPHC pumps are made by Kent (OP5)
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PostPost by: bitsobrits » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:22 pm

One modern car that has has electronically controlled oil pump is the 2014+ (981) Porsche Boxster/Cayman. Oil pressure varies according to load AND RPM not just RPM.
Steve

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Formerly:
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PostPost by: vstibbard » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:10 am

With the pace pump I would check the positioning of the pump relative to a std pump as it looks like the oil filter maybe rotated slightly, from a discussion I've had a few years ago at the Autosport show I think these family of pumps were made for Formula Fords as there is a dry sump version it avoided remote filters.

The take off ports for oil cooler for instance would be facing the engine mount, is there sufficient clearance?

Cheers

V
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:34 pm

Thanks for your advice. It does look as though the take off points for the oil cooler might cause clearance issues with the RHS engine mount. I'll investigate further - perhaps it's possible to still use the sandwich adapter rather than the ports on the pump?

Regards
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
1980 Ford Escort 2.0 Ghia
Peugeot 505 GTI Wagons (5spdx1) (Autox1)
2015 Honda City 5spd.
2cams70
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:59 pm

Hi Guys,

Has anyone had any dealings with Pace recently? They promise to when called but don't answer emails and it seems I'm not the only one receiving this treatment judging by recent comments on their Facebook page and yes I too have been told by them that they have only just got back from Lemans and still need to catch up on received enquires !!

According to Burtons they have people still waiting for this pump having ordered it 6 months ago with no ETA given to them by Pace.

Is there a management problem with this company? Are they still solvent?

Regards
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
1980 Ford Escort 2.0 Ghia
Peugeot 505 GTI Wagons (5spdx1) (Autox1)
2015 Honda City 5spd.
2cams70
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Posts: 938
Joined: 10 Jun 2015
Location: Australia

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