No Start

[robertverhey]

I'd check the little pigtail wire in the dizzy, once I had one that was only hanging by a thread and had similar symptoms.....

[Galwaylotus]

More data. I went out this morning when the rain let up and measured the coil resistance compared to new which I measured at 2.8 ohms and 8710 ohms primary and secondary respectively before I installed the new coil. Today, after yesterday's troubles, the resistances cold were 3.2 and 8850 respectively. I tried to start the engine and it fired up immediately so I warmed it up a bit and then shut it down and measured resistance again. this time primary was over 4 ohms but dropping as I kept checking. In a couple of minutes it had dropped to 3.6 ohms. Secondary had gone up to 9340 ohms and was holding steady there. After another 20 minutes or so, resistances are 3.4 and 9310. I'm looking for checks to determine what might be failing at higher temperatures as I don't want to pull everything apart and start wholesale replacements. The shotgun approach has never really impressed me and doesn't give me confidence as it won't define root cause. I'd prefer if I didn't have to ditch the electronic ignition and return to points and condenser. Is there anything else I can check statically, i.e. without having to commit to a long run where I might get stranded? I have a long club run in a week so I need to get this resolved.
Thanks, folks for all your input. This is a great forum.

[rgh0]

Many Electronic ignition modules, especially those that fit in the dizzy itself do not tolerate low resistance coils as the current flow can overheat their electronics. Does you unit have a specified minimum coil resistance? I have seen unit that specify not to use a 3 Ohm coil

A fault that only occurs after the system is hot and goes away when it cools down is always a challenge to diagnose

You need to measure what going on when it fails and whether it is still switching on the low voltage side or is it not conducting on the high voltage side that is the problem

cheers
Rohan

[StressCraxx]

Perhaps a bad ballast resistor? As it gets hot, resistance goes up, voltage goes down.

[Galwaylotus]

More on this sorry saga.
I contacted Powerspark about my electronic ignition module. I was told to send it back for testing but I decided to ring and speak with someone about it before I took the car apart again. This morning I went out and started it to measure the voltage at coil input and that was ok. It started immediately and I warmed it up until it would idle and I could take the readings. I then rang Powerspark and spoke with someone in Technical Assistance. During the discussion the subject of HT leads came up and a suspicion that my leads were copper core and had therefore damaged the ignition module. I went out to pull the distributor cap and check. I did have reasonable resistance, just under 5k ohms, but the core is definitely copper. Powerspark told me that that has likely damaged the module and I needed to replace it. They also sold me a set of the "correct" leads. When the new kit arrives I'll install it and there had better not be any issues with this one. I'm not happy that there was no warning with the packaging and instructions on the first kit that copper core HT leads would damage the ignition module. This is costing me both time and money, although I did get a small discount on the replacement parts from Powerspark. If I'd been warned first time I wouldn't have had to spend on a replacement kit at all!
It's likely that I'll have to pull the distributor again and put the points and condenser back in for this weekend's run but I'll wait until Thursday in case the new kit arrives so that I don't have to do the job twice!

[Chancer]

An interesting concept

[Galwaylotus]

Nothing in today's post so I spent a little time this morning pulling out the distributor and replacing the Powerspark module with points and condenser. I didn't reset plug gaps and set my static timing at 10? BTDC (lightbulb method). The engine started with a little kickback and ran a little roughly until I noticed I hadn't reconnected the No. 1 cylinder HT lead!
Shut it down and made the necessary connection then restarted. No kickback this time but it isn't running as smoothly as with the Powerspark ignition. I'll reset plug gaps when it cools and try again. I need to make the WestRun this weekend.

[rgh0]

Setting bigger spark plug gaps with electronic ignition is a myth. All it does is over stress you hi voltage components and lead to premature failure. That may be the cause of your problems.

Did you check coil resistance versus minimum specified by powerspark. That is more likely cause of failure than their supposed reason of copper cores somehow causing a failure. I presume they think that voltage spikes of some sort get fed back through the low voltage side or radio frequency signals upset the electronics somehow.

cheers
Rohan

[Galwaylotus]

Rohan, I was going by Miles Wilkins' suggestion on plug gap - 0.8mm vs 0.55 mm std. The coil is a Lucas Sports coil with 2.8 - 3.2 ohms primary resistance (measured the lower value last winter but the value now is a bit higher) and 8710 ohms secondary resistance - both well within Powerspark's recommendation. I might have to dial back the static timing a bit if it kicks back at startup but it may be ok as that's what I was running before. I'm considering installing the Stealth Black Box ignition controller when I return to electronic ignition as that way I can tailor the advance toward an optimum for each rev range. I did get the impression from Powerspark's tech that the interference caused by solid copper core HT leads has damaged their modules in the past. That's why I accepted the change to their leads. I'll install the lot when it arrives and at least I'll have some come-back if it fails then. Pulling the distributor when the Webers are in situ is such a pain!!

[rgh0]

The Lucas cap and rotor was never great and the modern replacements are even worse. The higher plug gap leads to a higher peak voltage which can lead to tracking failure of cap or rotor. The HV resistance of these components typically reduces with temperature so this could be the cause of your problems. Only way to tell is whether when you get the failure, is the Low voltage side working properly or not. If it is then the problem must be in the HV side and you should be able to identify the source.

Whether bigger plug gaps give you more power or some other performance improvement I will leave to others to debate - but I have never found it

cheers
Rohan

[Galwaylotus]

Two steps forward and one back I can handle but "Go to Jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go" is tough to take. While waiting for my replacement electronic ignition and new HT leads, I ran out of time to make Friday's static display and today's WestRun. On Thursday I pulled the distributor and replaced the Powerspark module with the original points and condenser. I set the points gap at 0.015 inches (spec is 0.014 to 0.016) and static timing to 10?BTDC and tried to start the engine. It kicked back a little and then started but ran very rough. I had no time to sort it then and thought I'd be able to make the three mile trip to the static display and worry about tuning later. The further I drove the rougher it got and I had to hold revs to over 3000 rpm just to keep it running! As I entered the display area, the lads told me the car was belching smoke and flames!!! Some seven hours later, at the end of the show I had great difficulty getting it started again and when I did it was rougher than ever. It had no power either and finally died over two miles from home. I had to call my insurance company for "motor rescue" and my Elan came home on the back of a flatbed truck!
Today I pulled the plugs expecting to see very black sooty plugs from poor ignition. I was stunned to find each of the four plugs was completely clean. They didn't really look overheated but there was no carbon showing at all and they were certainly very sooty when I replaced the points. Now I'm really at a loss. I never changed a thing in the carburetion from when it was running really well a week and a half ago. I'll need to check the fuel filter to see if there's a partial blockage as I cannot think of what else may be causing the issue. I'm really starting to doubt myself big time at this point! Needless to say I pulled my entry for WestRun but I did go see them off this morning and got plenty of photos.

[rgh0]

Did you get the plug leads on the right plugs? easy to make that or some other simple setup mistake when under time pressures - been there done that !!

cheers
Rohan

[Galwaylotus]

Yes, Rohan. I have each of the leads labelled so no worries there. More investigation and analysis required on my part!

[Galwaylotus]

Mea culpa! I solved the issue today. I checked the static timing with a lamp across the points and discovered it was way too advanced - right off the scale - perhaps 35? or 40? BTDC!! There is another set of notches on the crankshaft pulley and in my haste to get it back together last week I must have aligned the wrong set with the timing mark on the front cover.
I decided to confirm that as the issue so after resetting static timing to 10? BTDC I tried starting and it fired and ran immediately. I didn't even pump the accelerator before trying. That has never happened before when cold.
I had left the distributor clamp very loose as I'll be pulling it again so it started to get rough after ten or twenty seconds of running as it probably was self rotating so I shut down having confirmed the root cause of my problem. When I get a chance I'll pull the distributor and install the new electronic ignition. I'm relieved to have resolved the failure.
Thanks to all who made suggestions and tried to help.

[Galwaylotus]

I was away for a few weeks so I'm just getting back to working on the Elan. After reading Miles Wilkins book on the Twin Cam and the various distributors that were installed, I decided to install a Stealth BlackBox ignition controller along with the Powerspark electronic ignition. I like the idea of no more fiddling with the distributor and its (lack of) access. I reinstalled the distributor yesterday and spent the rest of the time on wiring for the BlackBox unit. I'm using the 41189A settings to start even though my S/E came with a 40953 distributor. The former was the spec for the S/E engine and seems more conservative than the 40953 advance curve so it's a good place to start. I was interrupted in my wiring by rain so I'll try to complete that today. I want to try and get the engine running before connecting the BlacBox unit (minimising the variables) but with the advance weights locked out I won't be able to drive it as it will be stuck on static advance only. It's always fun finding the correct static timing point so this may take a while!
Going back to my previous ignition failure, Powerspark told me that it was likely caused by using copper core HT leads so I now have a set of their leads installed. I did notice, though, when installing the Powerspark module this time, that the low posts on the distibutor baseplate and used for adjusting the points gap, were preventing the Powerspark module making full contact with the baseplate. After consulting with them, I took a Dremel tool to the ignition module mounting plate and machined a groove some 0.9mm deep to clear the baseplate posts. At least I've now eliminated a potential overheating factor! I could have filed off the posts but if I ever need to go back to points there would be no way to adjust them.
Stay tuned.