Engine rebuild problems - advice needed

[PaulFinch]

Hello All, this is a bit of a long story so bear with me....

The saga of my engine rebuild began this time last year. A full rebuild was completed including new liners, bearings, water pump, QED 420 cams, hardened valve seats and some other repair work to the cylinder head.

I had the completed engine run in and set up on an engine dyno where two serious issues were discovered.
The newly fitted water pump sprung a leak and it was discovered that the block was cracked around one of the core plug.

I returned the engine to the original builder who had the block stitch welded and installed a new water pump.
I then fitted the engine only to discover the water pump was still leaking.
Once again the engine was returned but this time I bought a new Burtons front cover conversion.
This cured water pump but the engine was now leaking oil from the front crank seal.

I contacted the builder regarding the oil leak but received no reply. The company i used are based 120 miles from where I live and not being able to face yet another engine removal and replacement and two further round trips I elected to complete the work myself. A new seal and crank pulley solved the leak.

I have used the car quite happily over the summer but have always thought it sounded a little 'tappety'.
The noise was gradually increasing and I wanted to re check head bolt torque anyway so removed the cam cover to investigate.

I found all valve clearances were out of spec with two of the exhaust clearances being double what they should be. No problem, I thought, that would account for the noise but it's a bit strange that they are so far out after only a few hundred miles. The picture below is of the shim I removed. It is very well worn.

After checking the inlet cam clearances, which were also all out of spec, I removed the cams and followers to discover that no shims have been fitted. It appears the end of the valve stem has been machined down in attempt to gain the correct clearance. Is this considered standard practice? As far as I can work out, this means I can't adjust the clearances with the current followers as the smallest shim being .060" will be far too large.

I then noticed that two flat sided head bolt washers were not in the correct place meaning the cam was contacting a washer and the rearmost cam camp on the inlet side had been crushed over a washer taking a chunk out the ally (pictures attached).

One more slightly less serious issue is there were no washers on any of the cam caps.

I have contacted the engine builder with my findings. I have lost confidence in this engine and want to have it stripped and checked.

Their response was it was in good working order when it left their workshop so the case is closed.

I am now left feeling incredibly angry and let down. I'm posting this to try to get some unbiased views on my story and try to work out where I go from here.

If you're still reading, thanks for sticking with me!

Paul

[jimj]

I can well appreciate anyone`s reluctance to defame, publicly, another but my blood boils when I hear of commercial enterprises who don`t fall over themselves to rectify customer`s dissatisfaction. They have only themselves to blame if you name and shame them. It would be a service to others who might be considering their "service".
Jim

[ken ob]

Yes I agree that you should name them so that others can avoid similar problems.

Ken

[billwill]

I presume that they are not Lotus/Ford twin-cam engine specialists?

[peterexpart]

120 Miles from Somerset that's the New Forest !!!!
I would be mighty pi##ed if it were my engine

[pharriso]

Loughborough is 160 miles, so not QED

Sounds like a total hack job, I'd be pissed as well!

[john.p.clegg]

Paul
You can at least give us a clue....we should be able to work it out and protect us and others of shoddy workmanship..

John

P.S.
Unbiased view...Name and shame...Lesson learnt.....ask on here for reputable sources/builders....Somehow I don't think you will get satisfaction from your engine builder.

[elansprint]

Paul if the valve stems are ground down to get clearance when normally a shim is required then either the valve seats are recessed too far into the head or they have used the wrong valves. If i were you i would get trading standards or pursue through the small claims court involved as they are obviously incompetent
Ian

[Esprit2]

Sorry to hear you've had such a negative experience with your engine builder. In such situations, it's often difficult to come out ahead in small claims court since it's the word of an amateur against the word of a professional. Never mind that "professional" can mean as little as he works for money, and not that he's an expert, but still, it's typically an uphill battle.

You could solicit support from the dyno shop in stating that the engine had coolant and oil leaks as it was delivered to them... twice. They may even be able to comment on any unusual valve clatter they may have noticed when the engine was running in their dyno. I don't doubt that the dyno shop would refuse to get involved, but ask.

Also, the builder's claim that the engine was in good working order when it left his shop is another case of your word against his. Especially since you have now opened the engine without the presence of the builder and/or a witness. He can now say you did it as easily as you can say he did it, and who is going to prove what?

As far as the two photos are concerned...

A shim with a wear depression isn't uncommon. If the shim were brand new when installed, and wore that deep of a depression in the short time you describe, then that would be extraordinary. But to re-use a worn shim, one only has to make a point of measuring in the center only, using the small diameter anvils of a micrometer (a vernier caliper's long jaws would bridge over the depression). Then be certain to install the shim with the depression side down against the valve stem (the tappet's crown would also bridge across the depression). If that were correctly done, a worn shim with a pronounced depression could still give the correct clearance. The open question is, was the valve clearance correct when the engine was delivered to you? Was it correct when you opened the engine some time later?

When you first opened the engine, did you measure and record all the valve clearances before further disassembly? The results could be important now.

It is not normal, or good practice, to assemble the valve train without the shims. Even if the valve stems were carefully cut to the required length to produce the correct clearance without the shim. Without the shim, either the stem or the tappet would then bear the brunt of any long term wear. They're expensive parts to have wear out regularly, and the valves in particular are very labor intensive to replace. On the other hand, the valve shim is an inexpensive, disposable part that normally takes the wear. It is, IMHO, very poor practice to assemble the valve train without the shims even if the correct clearance is achieved in the end. That's not good workmanship.

If the old valves were re-used, just lapped in, it would be normal for them to recede into the seats a wee bit during the lapping process. The difference would require slightly thinner shims in order to achieve the correct valve clearance, but little more.

However, if the valves & seats were both re-ground, and cut excessively, it's possible the valve receded into the head to an excessive degree, using up the space normally occupied by the shim. In that case, it would have been better to re-cut the valve stem lengths as required to make room for shims. If the valve stems were already too short to allow for further cutting, then new tappets with thinner crowns could be installed at additional parts cost (aftermarket tappets are available in incremental thicknesses -- contact JAE). Worst case, replace with all new valves and valve seats. The builder should have at least had that conversation with the owner, discussing options before proceeding with a half-backed assembly.

IMHO, assembling the valve train without the shims was either a blatant mistake, or very poor workmanship. In an old engine, it's possible the valves were previously re-ground, and already beyond safe limits for another re-grind. But in that case, a good builder would contact the owner, advise him of the problem, and suggest replacing all the valves. That apparently didn't happen.

The builder has already shown his stripes by stating that the engine was in good running order when it left his shop. The chances that he will step up and make it right are nil. Getting satisfaction in small claims court, or through the Better Business Bureau (or the UK equivalent) will be difficult if you can't get some expert opinion in your favor. Good luck with that.

The one thing you might try is to contact Lotus Cars. They don't need to know the full details, and may not wish to get involved if you do thell them. Simply ask the generic question, is it ever acceptable practice in rebuilding a Lotus Twin Cam (or 907) engine to assemble the valve train without the shims, even if the correct clearance can be achieved by accurately cutting the valve stems to the required length. If Lotus says no, that's not acceptable practice, then their opinion as the engine manufacturer should trump the opinion of any other outside "expert"... including the builder. Too bad Brian Angus isn't still at Lotus. He'd be a great one to ask.

*~*~*
The mis-placed washer and gouged cam bearing cap are further evidence of really careless assembly. Your problem will be proving the builder did it, and not you during a subsequent re-assembly. You have opened the engine after receiving it from him, and have no witnesses that you found it that way. Of course, the builder is insisting the engine was in good operating condition when it left his shop. Your word against his, so now you're locked in a pissing contest that can't be won. Contact the Better Business Bureau, but don't get your hopes up too high.

*~*~*
Does "Angie's List" reach to the UK? On this side of the pond, Angie's List is a public forum in which consumers can rate service providers of all kinds. Anything from baby sitters to home builders... and engine builders. Customers, satisfied or otherwise, can give feedback ratings, and tell of experiences... by geographic area. Then anyone seeking similar services in the same area can log in to find out which businesses are recommended by their customers, and which ones are not recommended. Angie's List wouldn't help you now, but you could share your experience and name names.

http://www.angieslist.com/

Speaking of sharing your experience, I do believe (at least in principal... I don't know your local laws) you should name the shop before this is all over. Not until you have exhausted other options, since ticking him off more won't help your efforts to get him to stand behind his work. But when all else fails, you could start "Paul's List".

Good luck,
Tim Engel

[billwill]

Speaking of sharing your experience, I do believe (at least in principal... I don't know your local laws) you should name the shop before this is all over. Not until you have exhausted other options, since ticking him off more won't help your efforts to get him to stand behind his work. But when all else fails, you could start "Paul's List".

I think you missed out a word NOT in there.

[PaulFinch]

Thank you for all your responses guys.

Primarily I wanted to open it out to wider opinion as I have been in danger of becoming slightly obsessed with this issue so wondered if I was being a bit blinkered. I'm pleased, in an odd sort of way, to see that so far everybody appears to share the same opinion as me.

This is an absolute shambles, but as Tim has pretty much stated, even if I take it to court I am mostly just pissing against the wind, it's all my word against his. I have taken many pictures from the moment I lifted the cam cover but once again, this is still my word against his.

The individual I was in contact with who is affiliated with the engine building services has an incredibly good reputation in motorsport, engine building, engine management, and has been cited on this very website as producing excellent work on twin cams in the past. Unfortunately, he is now in business with another party who actually completes the machining and engine build work from his Midlands based workshop.

I have consulted the citizens advice bureau and today have sent correspondence quoting the supply of goods and consumer services act 1982 which gives him 14 days to reply. I want the engine to be stripped, checked and rebuilt correctly at a third party firm of my choosing (the firm who originally dynoed the engine) but I fear there is little or no chance of this. If i receive no reply then I will take it further but in my heart of hearts I know this is probably not going to get me anywhere. At the moment I feel I have nothing to gain from naming the company and individual involved, this may change in the coming weeks.

Thanks again, I'll keep you posted.

Paul




I

[512BB]

Paul,

As all have said, I to am sorry to read of your woes.

You end with what you should do now? This is what I would do. I have sued many firms, both whilst I was in business and privately. I have won every case. I do not put up with crap from any firm, if I have paid good money for something.

Write a letter, or email nowadays if you prefer, to the firm you used, detailling everything from day one, including your brief to them, then the problems you have had to date, and your findings when you removed the cam cover. It does not matter that you did not have a witness when you started to dismantle the engine. State in your letter, what outcome you want. In this instance, I would be asking for all monies paid to be returned, without prejudice. Without prejudice, because if it turns out that they have f..k.d your head, you will be claiming for that as well.

In the meantime, you need to take your head to another firm, who know what they are doing. You need a report, or a letter, on the quality of the workmanship, or lack thereof, that was carried out on your head. You will probably have to pay for that, but it will be money well spent. DO NOT, at any time, tell the company you commission to carry out the report, who did the original work. I made that mistake once, so you do not have to. If they ask, say you prefer not to say, and leave it at that.

Send your complaint letter off to the engine builders. Keep copies.They may reply, they may not. You do not have to give them any further chances to put things right, you can say that you have no confidence in their abilities to correct the matter, and you want your money back.

Give them 14 days after the first letter goes off, and no matter what they reply, if they reply, then send a final 7 day letter, telling them of your intention to open a case against them in the county court. And do just that. The process is very simple and geared towards the man in the street. But you definately need some corroborative evidence, ie the report or letter, to show the work carried out was substandard. What I have usually found, is that as soon as a company receive court papers, they pay up, because they cannot defend the case.

Of course, there is another avenue you could take, if you paid for the work by credit card. The CC company are jointly, and severally liable, with the builder, for any comeback, under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. In other words, your CC company can be held solely responsible. You do not even have to contact the engine builder!

And just for the record, no one builds a twincam head without shims. Totally incorrect procedure. The shims are there so that the gap between the bucket and cam heel can be varied. You only have to look at the workshop manual. Take one along to the court if it comes to it, and show the judge. You will win.

If you want to chat about the procedure, pm me.

All the best,

Leslie aka Judge Judy

You have posted a response prior to me writing the above. You are going at it with the wrong attitude. And with respect to Tim Engel, he is wrong. It is not your word against the builders, it is the builders word, or workmanship, against your evidence. You have already started to gather the evidence you will need, by taking photos of the workmanship, and by getting a report from an independant firm, will be further evidence to support your case. A judge will look at the evidence, and hear your side of the argument from you personally, and listen to the other party, if they turn up, and see who he believes. BE POSITIVE.

[Hawksfield]

Hi Paul

Good luck with your claim

Keep us informed even if its just to get it off your chest

[rgh0]

Hi Paul

The setting up of the valve train for a high lift cam like the QED 420 takes a far amount of detailed work to get it right. You need the right base circle for the cams, right valve stem length, right valve seat position, right springs and retainers, right followers and shims. Yes always shims as the bucket followers are not designed to run direct on the stems and i am surprised the stems could touch the followers as they are normally recessed in the retainer. If the follower was actually contacting the valve spring retainer you were very lucky the valve stem collets did not fall out and the engine wreck itself. There are many options in this combination of changes from standard and a good engine builder should have taken you through the options. Do you have a list of the parts supplied for the rebuild in his invoice as this will tell you more about what he has done and not done.

Shims only indent like the one shown when they have been ground through the hard facing surface. Grinding a shim is not advisable but it can be done as long as only one face is ground and this ground face is placed upwards against the follower and not against the valves stem.

The chunk out of the cam bearing cap is not unusual and I have seen it on other cylinder heads. They dont seem to cause any harm generally with cam bearing clearances or alignment and it may have been there for a long time from previous work

You certainly need to totally strip and check every component in the engine and rebuild it again from scratch as I would unfortunately not trust anything that has been done in the build based on what you have seen so far.

In Australia this would go to the small claims court and you would have a good chance of success of having an order made for the money you spent on the defective work to be refunded. Harder to get consequential damages paid for the added cost of the rework but worth a try and a good starting point for settlement negotiations prior to the hearing!

cheers
Rohan

[jono]

Paul - you have a PM.

Jon