Aluminum Oil Pan Poll

[Tahoe]

Please take the time to take this poll regarding an Aluminum Oil Pan.

Because of the costs involved in tooling, fixturing, machining, etc. are extensive, I'd like to get a feel for what you would expect to pay for an Aluminum Oil Pan with the following features:
Exact fit for a lip seal block
Same oil capacity as stock
Sump baffling, but no crank scrapper.
Provision for an oil temp sensor
Magnetic oil plug

If the expected price does not meet the expectations of this forum based on a volume of 100 pans, then the project will more than likely need revisiting to see if the final price can be brought into line with expectations, or if it should die due to lack of interest.

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOU INPUT

Feel free to email your thoughts to [email protected]

[CBUEB1771]

Russ,
This is an interesting idea. I would also add a provision for an external suction line to feed a dry-sump type oil pump. The Ford Racing block has a provision to feed the crankshaft oil gallery with an external line from a dry-sump pump to avoid the restrictive, small bore cross-block drilling. Also if anyone needs a crank scraper they can just buy one from Jay Ivey.

[elancoupe]

60 reads and 8 voters? If you take the time to read the topic, place a vote!

[1964 S1]

I count 18 voters. Patience is a virtue.

[gjz30075]

The greater capacity would do it for me. Much like a 'T' pan the Cobras and Shelby Mustangs have (had). The extra capacity need only be a quart but the pan cannot be any deeper. It'll need to have some slight side extensions, like the 'T' pans.

Greg Z

[Tahoe]

Several people have contacted me regarding an extra quart of oil in the pan. That would not be hard to do so if that is a selling factor. I'll see what it takes to make that work. It wouldn't affect the price at all since the pan already has the "T" pan look to it already, but some care to not interfere with the oil filter on one side is required, and the other side actually has plenty of room. Still working on reducing the overall cost of this project and I appreciate everyone who has voted so I can get a feel for the interest, and what you value in this product. It's still a long way from a go, but if it does become a go expect availability in approx 60 days from then. Just so everyone knows that might be interested, I will do all the work required up to the point where tooling needs to be manufactured at zero cost, which is the reverse Engineering, 3D CAD work for the casting, machining, and possibly the 3D work for the tooling as well. At that point its a go or no go because of the costs involved that are not in my control. The driving factor here is the expected volume to drive the final price down to where most people feel comfortable. The more interest obviously the less expensive the pan will be.

[S2Jay]

Yes, I 2nd gjz30075, Greg Z on the "T-Pan" idea. This is just what I was thinking since I have A GT-350 & a Tiger which used this as a performance option back then.

The other question I had is how much this thing would weigh? The Purists & the Racers [I am often in between these groups] will worry about the weight of the Pan & then any added volume of oil will add to that. Some may also say that adding any capacity of oil & cooling can be done by adding an oil cooler, which many have done already.

Also, will the Pan be "finned" and / or will it have "Lotus" cast into the side?

Jay

[Tahoe]

Several people have contacted me regarding an extra quart of oil in the pan. That would not be hard to do so if that is a selling factor. I'll see what it takes to make that work. It wouldn't affect the price at all since the pan already has the "T" pan look to it already, but some care to not interfere with the oil filter on one side is required, and the other side actually has plenty of room. Still working on reducing the overall cost of this project and I appreciate everyone who has voted so I can get a feel for the interest, and what you value in this product. It's still a long way from a go, but if it does become a go expect availability in approx 60 days from then. Just so everyone knows that might be interested, I will do all the work required up to the point where tooling needs to be manufactured at zero cost, which is the reverse Engineering, 3D CAD work for the casting, machining, and possibly the 3D work for the tooling as well. At that point its a go or no go because of the costs involved that are not in my control. The driving factor here is the expected volume to drive the final price down to where most people feel comfortable. The more interest obviously the less expensive the pan will be.

I will weigh the current pan, and will be able to estimate the weight of the new pan with the CAD program. Fins will be on the pan, but probably not on the bottom, because we don't want the pan do get any lower than it is right now. I've though about including the Lotus script, but in order to bring the cost down it might be best to not have it so there is an appeal to other Kent engine users out there. If you wanted to put this on a Morgan, Capri, Pinto, Elva, etc. would you want the Lotus script on the pan. This is the time to offer suggestions, and really nail down what people want or don't want.

[JJDraper]

60 reads and 8 voters? If you take the time to read the topic, place a vote!

Go on, I'll explain..... I don't wish to be a Jeremiah (but it is my name!), but my sump shows the signs of years of grounding and contact with various bits of road furniture, such as speed humps, stones etc, and is none the worse for it in terms of leakage. I am concerned that an Ally pan would fracture at the first contact with any of the obstacles that just leave a groove or dent in the old pan. A cracked ally sump pan is a bit of a show stopper. I can understand the built in baffling, but why ally? Increased capacity/cooling? A thermostatic oil cooler can be had for less. I also have an oil temp sensor fitted through the sump plug which seems to work OK. Some owners have tried magnetic belts around the filter (not tried it myself) which I think would be more effective than a sump plug magnet. I don't wish to be negative, but I'm having trouble understanding what the benefit is, apart from looking great.

I've read the thread and still can't vote either way.

Jeremy

[stugilmour]

Jeremy, good points all.

Let's keep in mind "I wouldn't buy one" is offered as a choice and shows as statistically significant vote so far, so I agree with the encouragement for us all to at least vote. We have to expect that any custom part will not appeal to everyone; I figure 50% of voters expressing interest is pretty encouraging, but this could be misleading if folks who have no interest don't vote.

I am not in any way familiar with part design, but I expect the reasoning behind the baffling is that it is a known problem with the TC at high cornering speeds. I may have it wrong, but assumed Russ's idea was to integrate the baffling into the casting to prevent this problem.

As to pan cracking from impact, this is a very real problem to consider. The '50's to 70's Alfa TC was routinely protected with a cover of band steel due to this issue, and at least in my Berlina had a ton more clearance than the Lotus. Good thought that there is likely not enough ground clearance in the Lotus to go with this type of protection. I have not had issues with grounding the pan in my Plus 2, as lowest item on my car is the exhaust. There are a few listers familiar with Alfa; perhaps they can comment if this was really an issue.

IIRC my Alfa 2000 cc held between 6 and 7 liters, accomplished by bulging the Ali pan forward and to the side. The dip stick was marked for two liters, and it had external cooling fins as I believe are being considered here. I like these design ideas a lot. Biggest concern I could see with integrating these ideas would be potentially limiting use of the part in different vehicles and frames due to clearance issues (Europa TC, Formula Ford if allowed, etc.) Sounds like Russ is considering this issue carefully and could benefit from more specific feedback once he has a draft design.

I believe the biggest benefit highlighted for the Ali pan in Russ's original thread was to improve sealing of the pan gasket by providing a stiffer structure and machined surface for the gasket face. IIRC I never had pan leakage issues in the Alfa, although head gaskets were another matter.

Russ, agree with leaving off the Lotus script to give the part more universal appeal. Might avoid any issues with the brand police as well. Upped my $ vote to give you more encouragement on this project. Thanks for all the effort to date!

[elancoupe]

I am not in any way familiar with part design, but I expect the reasoning behind the baffling is that it is a known problem with the TC at high cornering speeds. I may have it wrong, but assumed Russ's idea was to integrate the baffling into the casting to prevent this problem.
"snip"


I believe the biggest benefit highlighted for the Ali pan in Russ's original thread was to improve sealing of the pan gasket by providing a stiffer structure and machined surface for the gasket face.

Stu's post does a good job of echoing some of my feelings. A good, machined surface is very beneficial to sealing. The easily deformable steel pan does not fit that description.

There are plenty of people who have used their car on a skidpad or other hard right hand corners that can attest to the need for sump baffling.

In 32 years of Elan driving, I have never contacted the sump on anything (knocks on the side of his head). The exhaust has taken some abuse, tho.

[jk952]

If of any value, I just had my 7 pan off and it weighs about 6.5 pounds measured with a fish scale, ( don't worry the fish are safe never actually measured a fish ) ...so not terribly accurate but at least gives and idea and another data point for statistical input , it has numerous baffles and a plate on the bottom so this would be at the high end. I realise it has a rear sump but other than that it's on the same block as a later lip seal unit on Elans so weight in the same category, except no baffles on my (early) Elan. Obviously the aluminum will be thicker so the weight savings won't be large.
Did I see somewhere this is a sand cast project, or is it to be die cast?
keep us posted...
jk

[Tahoe]

I am not in any way familiar with part design, but I expect the reasoning behind the baffling is that it is a known problem with the TC at high cornering speeds. I may have it wrong, but assumed Russ's idea was to integrate the baffling into the casting to prevent this problem.
"snip"


I believe the biggest benefit highlighted for the Ali pan in Russ's original thread was to improve sealing of the pan gasket by providing a stiffer structure and machined surface for the gasket face.

Stu's post does a good job of echoing some of my feelings. A good, machined surface is very beneficial to sealing. The easily deformable steel pan does not fit that description.

There are plenty of people who have used their car on a skidpad or other hard right hand corners that can attest to the need for sump baffling.

In 32 years of Elan driving, I have never contacted the sump on anything (knocks on the side of his head). The exhaust has taken some abuse, tho.

It's sand cast. The person I'm working with has made sand cast diff covers, trans pans, and valve covers for over 25 years. They are strong, high quality, don't leak, and although not on Lotus cars he has never known of an instance where a casting has broke or cracked. This includes some off- roaders who have hit there diff covers against rocks. The danger is always there of course, but the risk is low I believe as long as the pan is not the lowest part on the car.

[rgh0]

A secondhand pan 6 bolt pan here in Australia is around $400 to $500 if you can find one which you cant.
There should be a good market if you can keep the price below $500.

Baffling will be a challenge to get it to fit both the early central pickup and the later right hand side pickup and to be effective. You may want to just cast in mounting lugs and supply different baffle arrangements for each pick up and for road ( fixed plates) or track ( swinging gates) or just let people make their own.

Extending the sump with wings is only really possible on the left due to the oil filter position on the right. More space on the left will result in more space for oil to flow away from the RH pick up so it may not be a good idea.

Having both the standard Elan / Corina front sump version and an Escort rear sump version would increase the market opportunities and should be relatively easy to cast both if the moulds are designed with that in mind from the start.

cheers
Rohan

[vstibbard]

HI, I've voted already but would be a buyer of 2 possibly three if the baffling options are open.

I'd be interested to know if the guy who cats these up has cast alloy sumps for Martin 3 valve engines? it has an intricate front mounted oil pump and camshaft which are gear driven so different front dimension to normal Ford 1500 sump. I was told by one Dave Bean's guys there was someone casting them...

Cheers

V