Head gasket failure, hole sizes

[groucho]

Greetings all! I have a head gasket question...

Last fall, I completed reattaching the head onto my Elan S2, after getting it properly gone-through (the last shop who worked on it, some 8-10 years ago, did a hatchet job and it was impossible to get the valves adjusted correctly.) I know some basics but had never done any mechanical work at this level. After some stumbling around getting the timing right, I was very happy when the engine fired up. I drove it to my winter storage area, where it sat until this spring. I drove it a fair amount this year and was pleased with how well it was running overall - not perfect, but probably just a good carb tuning from perfect.

Normally, the engine ran very cool, but around early-to-mid-summer, it almost overheated on the way to a car show. I found the radiator was pretty much empty. I dumped some water in and over the next few months, I found that I kept needing to add more water. You can guess where this is going!

Finally, a few weeks ago, it started running really awfully and I checked the oil and sure enough, it was gray and milky. Earlier today, I managed to get time to finish pulling the head off again, and found the following damage to the gasket; look at the hole in the upper right.



You can also see the puddle of water in the cylinder! This the second-to-rearmost cylinder. On the head side, it looks a little dirty but I don't think any damage was done.

Now, I noticed some buildup of something around some of the holes - the ones where the holes in the block and head are considerably larger than in the gasket. On this particular one, something just plain destroyed part of the gasket. Would that have had anything to do with the holes being smaller? I would guess not, since the research I've done on that tonight indicates that the small holes are normal. I think I tossed the previous head gasket, so I'm not sure how it looked.

So, the question is, why would the gasket fail like that? Was it bad before I put it in (I'm pretty sure it didn't look that way originally) or did I do something wrong? As mentioned before, I'm a long ways from an expert but I tried to be careful and following the factory workshop manual and aftermarket service manual as close as I could.

At this point, I'm figuring that I'll order a new head gasket set and just put it all back together, but if there's some other problem that needs to be addressed, I would rather fix it now than have to take the head off AGAIN!

Thanks!

[ardee_selby]

Greetings Groucho,

Q.1 - Do you have a photo of associated cylinder head face? We need to see that.
Q.2 - What anti-freeze (and in what concentration) has been used?

(The compatibilty of some currently available formulations has been discussed on here in some depth)

e.g. See pic from Mark (an extreme example) in this thread:

elan-f15/anti-freeze-t19718.html

WRT gasket hole sizes: See this thread

elan-archive-f16/head-gasket-holes-t8312.html

[512BB]

Good morning Groucho & all,

When I bought my work a day Elan some 10 years ago, I noticed that the heater did not work at all well, and the engine temp would run far to hot for my liking.

On investigating, I discovered that the cooling system was partially blocked, ie the rad and heater core, with the heater valve completely blocked, as were all small waterways, with a white powdery deposit of I dont know what. Powdery when dried out that is.

This white mass, had also eaten its way through the metal tube that connects the heater valve to heater hose, front cover outlet pipe to bottom of rad, and left very little remaining of the thermostat housing. I shall post pics if I am able.

Fortunately, the engine ran great, but I have not inspected internally, and to date, it still runs great, albeit at a much lower temp now, after my remedial works.

It looks to me Groucho, that your head gasket, eaten away, was possibly caused by the same thing that befell my engine. Previous maintainers of my car, were a Lotus main dealer in Norfolk, and I suspect that a substance had been placed/put in the cooling system that either, should never have been put in there in the first place, or was left in there for far to long, probably as a flush out liquid, or it might have been an incorrect antifreeze. I shall never know.

In any event, if your car was mine, I would completely strip that engine down to component parts and rebuild, as you have water where it should never get, ie in the bores, and who knows where else.

Good luck my friend, and welcome to the forum.

Leslie

[ardee_selby]

<snip> Good morning Groucho & all,

On investigating, I discovered that the cooling system was partially blocked, ie the rad and heater core, with the heater valve completely blocked, as were all small waterways, with a white powdery deposit of I dont know what. Powdery when dried out that is.

Good morning Leslie.

"white powdery deposit"...some sort of "radflush" product that, itself, needed flushing out? Have seen that before, but without so much corrosion.

[alan.barker]

hi,
what i would suggest before you fit a new head gasket is to clean all the head bolt threads in the block.
buy 2 extra head bolts and cut the heads off and use as dowels to locate gasket and head correctly.
also be carefull you are supplied the correct head gasket with the small holes. torque head bolts in 3 or 4 steps.
before assembly be sure to degrease the surfaces very well e.g. with acetone
Alan B

[rgh0]

A photo of the head and block mating surfaces and a flatness check of the head is required to help properly diagnose the cause of failure but my comments would be

1. The brown sludge on the gaskets water holes shows contamination of the coolant this maybe from the leaking head gasket.
2. The discoloration of the head gasket surface and what looks like a crack in the firering suggests a leak from the cylinder that has eroded the head gasket over time to the water hole.
3. The fact that the gasket damage only appears to have occured in one location suggests it was not a general corrosion problem from the coolant passage.

Why the leak occured in the first place is not clear without examination of the surfaces for surface condition and overall head and block flatness, or it may just have been a not properly tensioned head bolt

cheers
Rohan

[nebogipfel]

In addition to all the good advice given, I would add that I agree with Leslie and it would be a good idea to clean and inspect the engine fairly thoroughly. It does look very rusty in and around the offending cylinder.

I would also seriously consider getting the head face checked/cleaned because the last thing you want is to do all the work only to have an early gasket failure.

FWIW On the subject of antifreeze and corrosion inhibitors (and indeed engine oil) I have read all the excellent contributions but remain confused. I liked the old days when it was Bluecol or cheapie and good old green Duckhams in the engine

EDIT Rohan beat me to it with reference to flatness

[groucho]

Thanks for the replies! Here's the head side:



I don't have a picture of the bare block as it is now handy but here's the full head gasket before I removed it.



Here's the bare block after removing the head the first time, from two years ago. I had cleaned it up as best as I could before reassembly, and the top surface was, as far as I could tell, perfectly smooth.



The coolant started, I believe, as your basic 50/50 mix but I'm not sure what antifreeze I used. Nothing special or unusual. After the coolant started disappearing, I just dumped water in the radiator, with the assumption that I would fix the leak (I figured it was just leaking out somewhere that I hadn't found yet) before it got cold enough to freeze.

Regarding rebuilding the whole engine - I agree that's something that should be done but I really, really don't want to deal with anything that thorough at this point. Getting the head done was a 2-year process (a full summer waiting for the machine shop and another summer finding time to reassemble it! two young kids means that time to work on the car is very rare); a full engine rebuild could take who knows how long, and chew through a lot of money that I'm not ready to spend - since if I went that far, I'd probably want to do the tranny too and fix those worn 2nd gear synchros, etc, etc... I'm hoping that I can just clean it up well and get some more driving time before needing the full rebuild. It was starting right away and running as well as it could on three cylinders when I took it apart, with no unusual noises. Even if it turns out that the head gasket fails again within a year, that is probably a risk I could handle, and then know that I need to go through the whole thing.

It's strange to me that the gasket was broken or eaten away so badly in the one location. The other holes where the gasket holes are smaller had some buildup of something on them but were structurally fine, which is why I was wondering if maybe there was some weakness in the original gasket, or I accidentally damaged it during assembly. I don't think I did but it is certainly possible.

For what it worth, the heater works fine although the fan conked out a few years ago (probably just wiring) - but it flows plenty of heat to the floor boxes.

I will get a photo of the bare block face and add that, probably tonight. If this could have been caused by a head bolt not being torqued completely, then that is definitely a possibility - I later learned that I was supposed to check the torque on the bolts after a period of time (100 miles?), which I never did, since it wasn't mentioned in the manuals! I tried to do some checking online but by and large, I was following the workshop manuals as closely as possible for every step.

[groucho]

It just occured to me - the pistons are at different locations now that the last time I removed the head - very strange as both times I was at TDC with the notch in the sprockets pointing at each other... color me confused!

[rgh0]

My guess on the causes continues to look like a gasket failure, probably due to the head bolts tension relaxing as they do need to be retightened at least once - I normally do it 2 or 3 times until I get no more movement.

I would clean the head and block faces very carefully to ensure they are totally clean of any deposits and check them for flatness with a straight edge. Reassemble with a new gasket and tighten to the specified bolt torque ensuring the threads are clean and lightly oiled and the bolts are running freely and not bottoming out in the block bolt holes when tightened. I would personally check the bolt torques with the engine cold after the intial run, at 100 miles and at 500 miles but twice is probably enough.

When checking the bolt torques if any of the bolts dont move at all at the specified torque back off the ones that dont move one at a time just a fraction of a turn, of just a few degrees to break the friction lock in the threads and retighten to the specified torque.

Long term you may have some problems with corrosion and wear from the water in the oil but if you dont want to do a full rebuild now nothing much to loose bye putting the head back on and seeing how it goes.

cheers
Rohan

[bill308]

The head looks fine in the area of the failure but I don't see a picture of the corresponding point on the block. Your first photo seems to suggest very little block material under the gasket at the point of failure, possibly due to corrosion?

If this is the case, I be tempted to try a local weld on the block side, then surface the block after reestablishing the coolant hole.

Bill

[groucho]

My guess on the causes continues to look like a gasket failure, probably due to the head bolts tension relaxing as they do need to be retightened at least once - I normally do it 2 or 3 times until I get no more movement.

That's what I'm hoping - again, I didn't even realize it was something that needed doing. I don't even know what I don't know. My previous mechanic (who was the previous owner and who introduced me to the Elan) is no longer with us so I'm attempting to do all the work myself now, but that means a lot of new learning! There's no magic to it (ok, maybe a little magic!) but it is a lot of new stuff for someone who didn't do much more than basic tune-up/maintenance work on cars before.

Long term you may have some problems with corrosion and wear from the water in the oil but if you dont want to do a full rebuild now nothing much to loose bye putting the head back on and seeing how it goes.

That's kind of what I'm thinking - obviously it will need a full rebuild sooner or later (especially since I have no intention of ever selling the car) but if I can avoid it now... remember that I'm coming off eight years or so of the car with valves that couldn't be adjusted properly and the resultant tick-tick-tick noise (yuck), so I have a tolerance for it being not quite perfect, as long as I am consistently improving it over time.

Is it worth buying a new set of head bolts? I am not against that if there is any benefit to be had, especially as I don't have any spare head bolts so I was pretty nervous when I positioned the head last time.

I'm also not sure if there are any tricks to help remove any of the water from the cooling system... I'm thinking maybe dumping in some quarts of fresh oil and "rinsing" things a bit when the car not running, then drain the oil out and put in the correct amount before starting, as well as any cleaning that I can do by hand without further disassembly.

Here's a shot of the block as it sits right now. I have done no cleaning on it yet apart from using a couple paper towels to pull up the little puddle in the #3 cylinder. There are a couple dirty coolant drops here and there that were put there when pulling the head off, but overall, I think that the block is pretty good with no corrosion issues to speak of.



Here's a closer shot of the problem cylinder.



Just to flash back to happier times, here's the outside of the car.



...and one from earlier this summer, when I thought I wouldn't have to remove the head again for many years!



Thanks for the replies, everyone! I really appreciate the info.

[jimj]

Groucho, I know less about rebuilding engines than you, in fact our dog knows more than me. He`s had a look at your photos. and says you definitely shouldn`t re-use head bolts and that may have contributed to your problem. Given that the head needs skimming, then rebuilding, the block may need welding, skimming etc. the dog thinks that long term, even medium term, you`d be better off having a professional engine builder rebuild the bottom end at the same time.
Jim

[fatboyoz]

Must be a Jack Russell! Ours is a smarty pants as well!!!
Colin.

Groucho, I know less about rebuilding engines than you, in fact our dog knows more than me. He`s had a look at your photos. and says you definitely shouldn`t re-use head bolts and that may have contributed to your problem. Given that the head needs skimming, then rebuilding, the block may need welding, skimming etc. the dog thinks that long term, even medium term, you`d be better off having a professional engine builder rebuild the bottom end at the same time.
Jim

[elansprint71]

In the short term you need to squirt some WD40 into the cylinders to prevent the rings getting rusty and sticking in their grooves. If you do decide to put it back together, you will change the oil before firing it up I hope
The water has been pumped out of the system at some pressure when the gasket failed.
Rohan's advice (as usual) is spot-on wrt re-torquing the head bolts and reminds me that I need to do it!