Lotus Elan

Radiator swirlpot / header question

PostPost by: gordont » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:00 am

After a few 40 degree days in Sydney I was planning on installing a TTR radiator swirlpot / header unit.
Question is that as my radiator is mounted quite close to the engine (electric fan fitted to the front) will it fit? What I hope is someone who has one can measure how long the TTR unit is so I know if I have enough room.

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Gordon
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PostPost by: elandoc » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:20 am

Hi Gordon,

It fits, but I grafted a filler neck and cap onto the thermostat housing and run an overflow tank on the inner guard - very neat!
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PostPost by: Old English White » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:03 am

gordont wrote:After a few 40 degree days in Sydney I was planning on installing a TTR radiator swirlpot / header unit.
Question is that as my radiator is mounted quite close to the engine (electric fan fitted to the front) will it fit? What I hope is someone who has one can measure how long the TTR unit is so I know if I have enough room.

cheers


Have a look , on "OEW" I install them both and just remove the fan from the engine ... I don't think you can be closer...
http://www.club-lotus.fr/membres/les-bl ... n-barnaud/
Please keep refreshing the page , or click to display the images ..
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PostPost by: 69S4 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:27 am

Christian, just been looking at your linked site and the photographs are not appearing. Looks like the links are broken. I've tried it in two browsers just in case it was a Firefox problem but it's the same in both.
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PostPost by: bcmc33 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:38 am

Gordon,

It would be more cost effective, neater and just as good to fit Cliveyboy?s thermostat filler - http://www.cliveyboy.com/lotus.html you just have to make sure to block-off the radiator filler cap.

IMHO, fitting a fan to the front of the radiator is not a very bright idea. What I did was use four 30mm long spacers to place the radiator sufficiently forward to get the fans at the rear so they suck which is more efficient than blowing.
Engine bay 2.JPG and
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:00 am

In a technical fluid dynamics sense the fan does not know whether it is sucking or blowing provided it is adequately sealed to the radiator in both cases on the appropriate side of the fan cowling.

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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:55 am

I think a Fan placed behind the Radiator is the better location as it doesn't obscure any of the Radiator area & would therefore not be detrimental to the efficiency of the Radiator.
But a sucking Fan should be moved slightly away from the Radiator so that there's no chance of it Stalling.
( Granny & Eggs bit:- Stalling effect similar to when you put your hand over a Vacuum Cleaner Pipe. The Revs increase but suction ceases.)

But back to Subject, apart from raising the Fill Point of the cooling system & thus reducing the chances of Air traps how can a Swirl Pot improve the efficiency of what otherwise remains a "standard" cooling system?

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PostPost by: Old English White » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:08 pm

69S4 wrote:Christian, just been looking at your linked site and the photographs are not appearing. Looks like the links are broken. I've tried it in two browsers just in case it was a Firefox problem but it's the same in both.



If you clicked on the right one , you should have seen that:
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Bcmc33 , I put the fan the way Tony Thompson recommended . It work this way . And btw , it allow me more space arround engine/coil/carbs/alternator/etc... But your arrangment isn't bad , if correctly wired :wink: .
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PostPost by: bcmc33 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:11 pm

D.J.Pelly wrote:But back to Subject, apart from raising the Fill Point of the cooling system & thus reducing the chances of Air traps how can a Swirl Pot improve the efficiency of what otherwise remains a "standard" cooling system?

John,

I've never really understood the term "swirl pot" - as far as I'm concerned it is simply a header tank. The whole point of the 'swirl pot' and Clive's/Ford's thermostat filler is to be able to fill the system from the uppermost point in the cooling system - this gives you the best chance of keeping the top hose full of water.
I have an abiding memory from the 60's of the Cortina guys filling the top hose with water at the start of each race with a bicycle pump into a Schrader valve fitted to the hose. Later, of course, Ford introduced their thermostat filler as a means of stopping this practice.
http://www.burtonpower.com/pic_viewer.a ... ousing.jpg
I'm assuming that the "standard" cooling system to which you refer is for 50's/60's and maybe the 70's vintage only, as it was common in those days to fill from below the top of the system.

I'm too embarrassed to say in public how I 'kept' the system full in the 60's in my old S2.
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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:49 pm

The "Escort" Thermostat Housing extension otherwise known as Burton / Clive Boy's adapter & also the TTR header Tank provide a "highest point" in the cooling system enabling the filling of the system & exclusion of air bubbles.
The "Swirl Pot" thingy was discussed not too long ago & Christian provided a cross sectional Sketch of the TTR Header Tank being discussed here in this Thread.
In the days when I was involved with Racing Cars a "Swirl Pot" was nearly always included in the cooling system.
This was a cylindrical Tank with a Filler Cap located centrally at the top of the Cylindrical Tank.
The Inlet & Outlet were Welded/Brazed tangentially into the periphery of the Cylinder.
This induced a "Swirl", of some sort, into the Coolant in the Tank.
The "Swirl" supposedly caused the denser Coolant to be centrifuged out towards the Cylinder Walls & the less dense Air could then rise upwards in the middle of the "Swirl" & escape via the Filler Cap.
Looking back I doubt very much that the "Swirl" was either effective or necessary.
The most important objective of achieving a cooling system fill point at the highest point in the system was however effectively achieved..

But back to subject; I don't understand how adding one of these Tanks will improve the cooling system's efficiency.

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PostPost by: mikealdren » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:20 pm

My understanding is that swirl pots separate out mixed fluids, in our automotive case air and vapours from fuel, oil or coolant. There is typically a side feed with a top outlet for the lighter gases and a bottom outlet for the liquid. Fuel injection systems need them before the high pressure fuel pump to stop them running dry as the tank gets low and my central heating system at home has one to separate out trapped air and keep the system quiet.

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PostPost by: Old English White » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:14 pm

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Christian. :mrgreen:
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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:22 pm

Old English White wrote:
69S4 wrote:Christian, just been looking at your linked site and the photographs are not appearing. Looks like the links are broken. I've tried it in two browsers just in case it was a Firefox problem but it's the same in both.



If you clicked on the right one , you should have seen that:
Image
Bcmc33 , I put the fan the way Tony Thompson recommended . It work this way . And btw , it allow me more space arround engine/coil/carbs/alternator/etc... But your arrangment isn't bad , if correctly wired :wink: .
Christian. :mrgreen:


Aha, but here we have a much modified cooling system incorporating a cross flow Radiator which requires a separate header Tank combined with a Coolant Filler.
The cooling system will have been improved by adding an upgraded Radiator & Electric cooling Fan(s).
A blower Fan instead of a sucker being preferable according to the Gospel of TTR?
Yes OK if you have to retain the original position of the Radiator.
However IMHO if you can move the Radiator forwards to provide space for a sucker Fan there will be marginal improvements.

But I still ask the question, how will the incorporation of a header Tank improve the cooling system efficiency?


John
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PostPost by: Old English White » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:11 pm

John ,
I never wanted to say anything different of what I wrote .
I just put all the parts the way Tony Thompson (and others) put them in an Elan ...
I have some pre-TT era pictures that show similar arrangment , allready . That's what I try to do .
And with such mod , I never worried about water temp ... car moving or not .
I asked how does the swirlpot work , and made a drawing to let it know ...
I suppose that water is allways fresher than steam ... Isn't it !?!
For the rest , the ingeneers will talk . Hugh !
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PostPost by: bcmc33 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:51 pm

D.J.Pelly wrote:Looking back I doubt very much that the "Swirl" was either effective or necessary.

John,
When reading the second and third paragraph the only words that came into my head was: complete bollox., but the next sentence made me realize you thought so too.

D.J.Pelly wrote:But back to subject; I don't understand how adding one of these Tanks will improve the cooling system's efficiency.

My argument is that when the system is full of coolant, steam should not be generated. The TTR system - perhaps lives in the world, and accepts that the system is so compromised that it cannot be maintained at optimum levels.
I did not use the TTR radiator as it seemed to me to be a compromise too far without a header section - perhaps it?s me that's too far behind the times. I simply like the idea of filling from the highest point in an attempt to keep the system full of coolant.


Old English White wrote:Bcmc33, But your arrangment isn't bad , if correctly wired[/color]

Christian,
I'm interested to know what you mean by this - then I'll tell you how they're wired.
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