New TC cylinder heads

[Foxie]

Just received email from Burtons https://www.burtonpower.com/ announcing availability of new TC head castings, in LM25TF, ?3,450 inc VAT.

Burtons say: "Since the heads are cast using modern materials and technology, there is no need for tappet sleeves or cam bearings ? both cams and tappets run directly in the head as you would expect on a modern engine."

Is this the month of April ?

Sean

[garyeanderson]

Just received email from Burtons https://www.burtonpower.com/ announcing availability of new TC head castings, in LM25TF, ?3,450 inc VAT.

Burtons say: "Since the heads are cast using modern materials and technology, there is no need for tappet sleeves or cam bearings ? both cams and tappets run directly in the head as you would expect on a modern engine."

Is this the month of April ?

Sean

Thats about $4400 U.S. dollars (no VAT and $1.50 a USD to the GBP), the rumor mill on this side of the pond says that there is supposed to be a new one made in the U.S. in the $5k range. Maybe there is a market for 2 new cylinder heads but that would surprise me. I hope that they both are made, a little competition might help us poor twin cam folk.

Gary

[pamitchell]

I spoke to Ken Gray of Dave Bean Eng. last weekend at the CSRG vintage races at Infineon Raceway. Ken advised they carry new TC heads as well for around $4K USD. Ken looked pretty pleased that there 9 23Bs, 4 7s, 2 Elans and 2 TC Ginettas G4Rs on the grid!

[types26/36]

Burtons say: "Since the heads are cast using modern materials and technology, there is no need for tappet sleeves or cam bearings ? both cams and tappets run directly in the head as you would expect on a modern engine." Is this the month of April ? Sean

Not quite sure why you are in shock Sean? the price? or the fact that seperate bearings are not required?
One would expect that the price is going to go up due to manufacturing costs/inflation etc.
Most modern engines do run camshafts directly in the casting eg: VW,Toyota etc. so I dont think April has a lot to to with it

[Foxie]

Not quite sure why you are in shock Sean? the price? or the fact that seperate bearings are not required?

Most modern engines do run camshafts directly in the casting eg: VW,Toyota etc. so I dont think April has a lot to to with it

Didn't the original cam followers run direct in the casting, and give problems ?

Nikasil anyone ?

Cam bearings and follower sleeves are available off the shelf, why not machine the casting to take replacements, is this progress or cost cutting

I saw a program on TV last week; They said it's now cheaper to buy a completely new BMW engine then have a old one rebuilt

Sean

[rgh0]

The Lotus 9xx engines run the cams and followers direct in the aluminium carriers. Aluminium is a pretty good bearing material and it seems to work OK. The only problem is I dont think there is enough metal to bore and sleeve the Lotus cam carriers reliably if they wear - I guess you just buy new ones and hope they keep on making them.

At least in the twin cam head if the alloy wears there will be enough metal to bore it out and fit fllower sleeves and standard cam bearings.

cheers
Rohan

[SimonH]

From what I have read, in the Wilkins book I think, the early cam buckets wore badly because they failed to or couldn't remove all the casting sand properly. The easiest fix was the sleeves. They didnt need to do it later on but carried on just in case.

There should be no problems with running the followers or the cams direct in the head. Materials have come on an awfull long way since the 60's, find a modern head that has sleeves or cam bearings.

As Rohan says at least if these heads do wear in about 30 years the parts for adding the sleeves will be available, cant see them ever needing cam bearings though, if the oil pressure is good enough.

Simon

[garyeanderson]

I think the only surprise is that there are 2 twin cam heads coming out at the same approximate time. There have been several aftermarket heads in the past Some of the improvements were not blessed by the racing organizations and without their support these new heads became expensive street equipment that didn't have much of a market. At that time Europa twin cams and Plus 2's could be had for the same money or less, things are changing in that respect. Its getting tough to find basket case twin cam powered car for less than the cost of a new head today. These new cylinder heads may put a dent in the Omnitec Stromberg conversions and major head rebuilds (tappet sleeves, guides and seats, etc) by competent engine builders.

photos linked from Burtons , thanks Russ for the link

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Just received email from Burtons https://www.burtonpower.com/ announcing availability of new TC head castings, in LM25TF, ?3,450 inc VAT.

Burtons say: "Since the heads are cast using modern materials and technology, there is no need for tappet sleeves or cam bearings ? both cams and tappets run directly in the head as you would expect on a modern engine."

Is this the month of April ?

Sean

The statements made by Burton on modern engines is indisputatable, they are made like that & they work very well for a very long time.
However just consider what sort of testing they have done to prove the capability of their new heads.
When Lotus developed the "Twin Cam" they had enough engines available to do what they then considered to be "sufficient" testing.
How many engines & what degree of engine testing facilities do Burton have?
What disclaimers do they have regarding the use of their new "Bearingless" heads?
I would be very worried about putting Camshafts & buckets from an older engine into one of their new heads because if anything happened they would have an easy opt out
Maybe the safest package would be to buy Camshafts & Buckets as a package with one of the new heads
On modern engines the finish of the bearing surfaces & the design of the bearings to eliminate such things as lubricant shear (especially on the thrust bearing surfaces) is hypercritical.
Alluminiun bearings are not so forgiving as (lead) soft metal bearing shells.
Any particles of contamination usually get squashed into soft bearings resulting only in minor scoring.
Aluminium will not do this & it can result in major scoring or even bearing failure.
"Cleanliness is next to Godliness"
Modern manufacturing & assembly processes are well capable of overcoming these problems but is your home workshop?
Again another opt out for the supplier
The camshafts used in modern engines have bearing surfaces of the highest quality (Superfinishing) which reduces the "initial" wear problem, resulting in long engine life.
I think that an engine like the "Twink" which is normally repaired at home needs the facility to fit "replacement bearings" & I think that if the engine is entrusted to a reputable "Twink" builder, he would make a disclaimer about not being able to fit new bearings or possibly refuse to do the job.

I think "Buyer beware" or "Stick with the Devil you know" is applicable here.

OK call me a Luddite if you like but those heads are not exactly cheap are they

Cheers
John
Founder member of "The flat Earth Society"

P.S. Nicasil is strictly for the "Big boys" & has resulted in major bore wear problems with high sulpher content fuels.
Nicasil is not repairable. A rebore requires a complete electro chemical treatment to restore Nicasil running surfaces.

[mark030358]

To Brian/types26/36/74 owner,

Hi this is Mark. I am in Midrand are you here. ould be great to meet for a beer. My SA mobile is 076 438 2346.

Sorry guys no elan content.

cheers
Mark

[types26/36]

NLC
Mark, U have a PM

[Foxie]

Well, thanks for all that information, this is a great Forum

I might mention that I visited the SAS Engineering stand http://www.sasengineering.co.uk at the Autosport Shown in January. They were offering remanufactured TC heads for ?3,100 +VAT.

Anyone know why QED stopped doing their heads ? I have a QED 420, it's mighty

Sean

[garyeanderson]

Well, thanks for all that information, this is a great Forum

I might mention that I visited the SAS Engineering stand http://www.sasengineering.co.uk at the Autosport Shown in January. They were offering remanufactured TC heads for ?3,100 +VAT.

Anyone know why QED stopped doing their heads ? I have a QED 420, it's mighty

Sean

I am uncertain to the truth of this but I had heard that the intake runners were larger in cross sectional area and allowed greater freedom when porting the head to the max and were disallowed by certain race organizations. If you can?t sell a expensive bit of kit to the racers it leaves you with a rather small market (Lotus street car owners) that will step up and buy one (or more). For someone that puts 10k into patterns $10k into casting up a hundred or so heads and another 10k into a cnc program to get them to a point where they sit on a shelf is a bit costly. These are the numbers that were quoted to me in 2003 by Dave Abrahams who was doing the KAM alloy blocks, I can?t see cylinder heads being any (or much) less expensive to produce.

[CBUEB1771]

OK call me a Luddite if you like but those heads are not exactly cheap are they

John,
You are hardly a Luddite. Modern engines are built upon many new technologies that allow replaceable shell bearings to be dispensed with in some cases. Vastly improved engine temperature management and lack of fuel dilution of oil due to digitally controlled fuel injection are just two. You also correctly allude to the thousands of dyno hours and on-road testing that the major manufacturers use to assure 200,000+ miles between engine failures. For example my Honda runs just fine on the 5W-20 oil specified. Would I put that oil in my Twin Cam? What I would like to see is an inspection report on a SAS/Burton head after 20,000 miles.

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

OK call me a Luddite if you like but those heads are not exactly cheap are they

John,
You are hardly a Luddite. Modern engines are built upon many new technologies that allow replaceable shell bearings to be dispensed with in some cases. Vastly improved engine temperature management and lack of fuel dilution of oil due to digitally controlled fuel injection are just two. You also correctly allude to the thousands of dyno hours and on-road testing that the major manufacturers use to assure 200,000+ miles between engine failures. For example my Honda runs just fine on the 5W-20 oil specified. Would I put that oil in my Twin Cam? What I would like to see is an inspection report on a SAS/Burton head after 20,000 miles.

Yup me too, we appear to be singing from the same Hymn sheet