Starter problems

[birdthom]

Afternoon All

My car wouldn't start this afternoon as the starter motor was spinning but the relevant cog (is it called the bendix drive?) obviously wasn't engaging with the ring gear.

So, the car's now up on axle stands and I'm trying to figure our how to remove the starter motor. In the middle of all the oily murk I can see one bolt at the bottom of the motor holding it in place. I presume there will be another one above the starter motor in that impossible-to-reach area beneath the inlet manifold/fuel pump etc. Is this correct? If so, how do you go about removing the starter motor?

Once it's removed, is it a question of getting a whole new unit or can I just recondition or replace the 'bendix' bits?

Sorry to ask such a simple question on here, but this section of my workshop manual is missing!

While I'm writing, does anyone have any views on whether it's worth uprating the starter motor for a high torque one while I've got the opportunity?

Thanks

Tom.

[john.p.clegg]

Yes,the top bolt is a bit of a pig,you have to get a correct length extension on you ratchet drive to suite,but when you get it off the bendix is no big deal to change
John

[types26/36]

. I presume there will be another one above the starter motor Is this correct? If so, how do you go about removing the starter motor?

Once it's removed, is it a question of getting a whole new unit or can I just recondition or replace the 'bendix' bits?

While I'm writing, does anyone have any views on whether it's worth uprating the starter motor for a high torque one while I've got the opportunity?
.

Yes there is another one above the starter and the power cable.
If you get a socket on an extension (6") with a universal type drive piece (comes with some socket sets) and a ratchet its quite easy to get the top bolt out.
It depends what is wrong the starter as to if you should replace or overhaul the unit, the bendix can be replaced and the rest of the starter checked out, it could be as simple as the bendix just being "gummed" up or it could be related to the flywheel teeth. When you do have the starter out feel the flywheel teeth for damage (normally there are four spots on the flywheel that wear...engine always stops in one of four positions against compression)
Sorry no experience with hi torque starters
Brian

[bill308]

Tom,

The other posters are correct in that there is a top bolt and it's tough to get off.

I highly recommend a high torque replacement starter. Even under the best of conditions, the stock starter is arginal at best.

Bill

[gobw2]

You know that on the back end of this starter there is a square drive for this purpose, don't you? When this happens, You either rock the car in gear or use the toolkit wrench to unjam the starter.

Lots of good info in the archives on this, including which replacement to get. The original starter was ok for the original application, with the battery nearby in the front. Add twin cam head, higher compression and stick the battery in the back - really marginal, besides,there is a tooth problem on them that eats up ring gears.

Back in the 1960's, before replacement starters , I attacked the voltage drop problem by using heavier cables, better engine/chassis bonding, and better grounding. I rebuilt the starter using oil wicks supplying the bearings with synthetic lube, and made an end cap for the back end,to keep dirt out of that bearing. Start reliably winter or hot summer.
If mine gives me trouble, I will remove it, store it in a plastic bag, for future owner,who may want originality, and buy better, lighter replacement. George 67 DHC

[steveww]

I use a very long (18") extension and a UJ on a ratchet. You can get to the top bolt this way with out taking off the carbs. There is usually a bit of oil down there so you should not have any problems with seized bolts. Once the two mounting bolts have been removed the starter motor will just slide out. Careful it is quite heavy when you are laying under the car.

If you are in the UK you can get reconditioned units easily and at low cost. On my S4 the standard unit does it job just fine, never had any problems with it. The high torque units are very expensive not sure you get your VFM here.

As another poster has already said. Ensure that the battery is in good condition and that the cables including the earth return are in good order. It is usually the battery that suffers due to lack of use, a trickle charger is a good investment here.

[birdthom]

Thanks for all your replies so far - much appreciated.

I'm about to order a recon starter motor as they're only about ?25. Both Susan Miller and Paul Matty have them in stock but only with a 10-tooth pinion, which is apparently what they usually supply. I was pretty sure that they're supposed to have a 9-tooth pinion and that the 10-tooth pinion is only fitted to later starters, but I might be imagining this. Does anyone have experience of 9 teeth against 10 teeth?

PS - I've no idea whether mine is 9 or 10 tooth at the minute as I've yet to pull the starter off, but I want to get the recon unit ordered now so that I can get it back on the road asap.

Thanks as always

Tom.

[archigator]

I have an aftermarket Gustafson starter... 9-teeth. It works really well, and Keith Gustafson (also an Elan owner) has a special interest in seeing Elan owners are satisfied with his product.

I heard also that a 10-toothed starter works better, but Keith convinced me that although he could provide a 10-toothed starter, the 9-tooth model is the one to go with. (He was so eager to please a fellow Elan owner, that he actually machined several different mounting plates for me when I was having starter/ring gear allignment problems. No charge...)

http://www.gustafsonmachine.com

I have no financial interest, just a satisfied customer.

Gary
'71 Elan Sprint

[types26/36]

I heard also that a 10-toothed starter works better, Gary
'71 Elan Sprint

That is my experience, my S2 used to chew up the bendix every few months with a 9 tooth, fitted a 10 tooth and no more problems.
I have just replaced the 9 tooth on my Sprint with a 10 tooth and its never started and sounded better.
Brian

[birdthom]

Dear All

Just a quick note to say thanks for your advice - I have replaced the starter and all seems to be working well. It now has a 10-tooth pinion which seems to work fine.

On to the next job.....

Tom.

[twincamman]

Tom--- during my starter problems I replaced the bolt with a stud into the upper starter bolt hole ---it eases the insulation of the unit as the starter hangs on the stud and is simpler to manipulate into place -- [I also power wash the engine area once in a while with an eye to having to dive down there in good jeans at the side of the road ] -- -ed

[type26owner]

I'll second the advice Gary gave you guys earlier. The Keith Gustafson starter is absolutely nail-proof and not that expensive. It will crank over the engine far LONGER and FASTER than the Lucas one. The lucas one self-destructs by slinging off the solder from the commutator wire connections a lot sooner than it takes for the Gustafon starter to even get hot. He's made it so easy to eliminate those troubles I can't imagine why anyone would stick with the Lucas unit. Stop chewing up the ring gear! Stop making quite embarassing and very loud starter noise by getting rid of the Bendix. I cringe everytime I hear that Bendix racket at the racetrack now because it brings back bad memories from our Formula Junior days in the sixties. Why suffer anymore?

[bengalcharlie]

I can not agree more with Gary and Keith.
These reduction starters are fantastic.
The original starter is a prehistoric design that never did the job properly and it should never have been fitted to any car in the first place.
I have a gustafson starter fitted to my car and it is the best change any one can make to an elan!

You can pick one up for about US 165-185 and they are adverised on ebay all the time.
I am sure you will find an outlet in the UK as well who sell them.

Robin

[twincamman]

Kieth --I don't think there is an automotive group of people who suffer more --[-unless they own a trebient -]-- -ed

[type26owner]

Ed,
I know of one! The Maserati BiTurbo owners suffer more, I've got firsthand experience. Thata car is much more poorly engineered in someways.