Cold Cranking

[aussieelan]

Hi Guys,

In the last week or so I seem to have developed a cold cranking issue ... i.e. the bloody thing just wont crank enough when cold to start!

Since acquired its always been difficult to start cold and took alot of cranking to get going. Last Saturday AM after a week of sitting (with a battery isolation switched off) it just wouldn't turn over (very slowly cranking). After alot of trying I managed to get it jump started (a jump pack and a running car connected) ... drove for an hour or so and then "put it away". Next morning same issue. Jumped much easier this time and I drove for a good 3-4 hrs on Sunday and when I put it away I took of a battery terminal lead.

Tonite I went down and reconnected the lead .... and whilst there is enough charge to crank slowly ... its not going to start.

Checked the charge over the weekend and there is 14.5 volts going back to the battery when running, so it seems OK. Battery is only 4 months old, but has been drained to dead flat a couple of times. Once warm it cranks and starts no prob.

I assume its a dodgy battery ... which is not such a huge issue to fix. However the difficulty to cold start is somewhat concerning. Is this normal? I don't really want to put another battery in just to have it fail again. I adjusted the carbs (webers) the weekend before last and despite it running a bit rich still, is running much better, although still popping back thru the carbs and exhaust a little (no idea if this makes any difference). Apart from this I haven't done anything recently, and even tho the electrics are a bit sus (aren't they all) it doesn't seem to have any major electrical issues.

Any comments or ideas appreciated. Thanks

Andrew

[steveww]

I use a battery conditioner to keep the charge topped up when I am not driving the Elan.

Too much static advance on the ignition makes for hard work for the starter. You really need to check the current going in to the battery to ensure that it is being charged.

Just some ideas to check out.

[Elanintheforest]

Andrew, I've had this with a couple of cars, and it's always turned out to be Earth points. Clean up all earths going from engine to chassis, including coil, and check out the battery earth to chassis. While you've got your hands dirty, clean the solenoid to starter leads...and any others you come across!

A tiny bit of corrosion on several earths adds up to a lot of resistance, a very slow crank, with nothing left to spark, and sorting this lot is free. If that doesn't work, try a jump start from another battery. If that doen't work...think about the starter motor.

The standard setup cranks and starts the engine fine..you don't need any of the fancy starters unless you have a very high compression ratio lump fitted.

Mark

[Esprit2]

Don't discount the battery as a possible cause just because it's only 4 months old. You said it has sat flat discharged for extended periods, and lead acid batteries do not like to be discharged. It kills them. Also, having the isolation switch open doesn't mean the battery won't self-discharge. The battery could have lost capacity due to being flat for awhile, and could have been down on charge from sitting.

Mark's comments about cleaning the ground points are right on. Start by checking the battery cables themselves. Use a terminal cleaner to brighten both the battery posts and the insides of the cable clamps. Then smear them with Anti-Seize and tighten them securely.

The starter motor is grounded through it's mounting connection. I've had a number of "weak starter" problems fixed by simply removing the starter, cleaning both sides of the mount (block & starter) with a wire wheel, applying Anti-Seize and re-installing the starter.

Good luck. Hopefully it's just a little clean-up and not expensive parts.

Regards,
Tim Engel

[ema7elan]

This is almost certainly a poor earth. Uusually where the earth lead from the battery connects to the chassis

EMA7ELAN

[gwnorth68]

The Lucas starter may be considered by some to be adequate but fitting a Gustafson geared starter has banished all starting reluctance from the day I fiited it. My Elan now starts just like a real car! Long experience with this starter on Lotus 7 and F-B racing cars shows they are marginal even if in as new condition.
Check the Lucas starter shaft for play in the bushings: when worn this will absorb most of its puny torgue output, especially with thick oil in the engine.

[robertverhey]

Hi

Can you tell it's winter down here in Oz? Similar to my recent experience with my Lotus Cortina (battery in boot). Battery was fully charged, but it really struggled to turn over the motor when cold. All was revealed when I went to have the charge rate checked. The sparky told me that for cars with battery in boot, and a long lead to the starter motor, I should get a battery with cold cranking ability (CCA) of at least 400, preferably 450. I did this and no problems since. CCA is marked somewhere on the top of every battery.

Robert

[bill308]

I'm with gwnorth on this one, but the other posts are also helpful. The starter is marginal at best. A modern geared starter helps a lot.

Bill

[Lincoln62]

Most modern batteries are rubbish. I have had 3 batteries replaced under warranty in the last 10 years from various cars. No batteries like the periods of inactivity but they should be able to last out the warranty period.

The vendors never seem surprised when one comes back, they just replace it.

I tried an expensive Optima battery in my Elan and even it only lasted 3 years, all reports told me they last 8-10 years.

I will just keep trying different brands until I find one that lasts.

Peter
66S2

[john.p.clegg]

.....another thing to look at....the starter (lucas) has two sets of carbon brushes and if one set is worn/sticking will only produce half power...

John

[reb53]

One cunning Lotus trick, ( number 453 from the "let's screw the owners" department ), is the earth in the boot.

Because the bolt comes up from underneath and screws through a threaded bobbin before exiting into the boot, the bolt head can have a poor contact with the chassis and you don't realise.

You can tighten the nut on top as much as you like without improving the contact between bolt head and chassis.

So, make sure it's tight by tightening the head underneath, ( and possibly loosening it again when you tighten the nut on top ), or drill the bobbin out so the bolt goes right through.

Ralph.

[garyeanderson]

After 33 years of ownership and doing it wrong for a good portion of that, I think that I can say what works as far as being able to get a Weber carbed twin cam started. Binn 50 lb battery, the Lucas Starter, and mechanicel fuel pump. I replaced it all with a One of Kieth Gustafson starters, a regulated electric fuel pump (I have a fawcet, but the brand is not important) and a garden tractor battery with a cut off switch (I should also have the accident kill switch, but don't).
For whatever reason, fuel disappears from the Weber float chambers and to start a twin cam you first have to have fuel there. So if it takes 10 or 15 revolutions to prime the fuel pump and fill the Weber float bowls than thats just wasting the battery. With the Electric fuel pump and never using the choke, three pumps of the throttle pedal after the floats bowls have filled and hit the key as I open the throttle minimally to let a little air in, once it fires an ocasional blip every second or two until its running acceptable enough to hit the road.
This works on a 1700 cc 10.5 to 1 compression ratio engine sitting in a 25 F degree garage after its sat for a month. The first garden tractor battery lasted 7 or 8 years, the next $20 dollar Garden tractor battery died after a year, I am on the third battery after 11 years for an investmeny of $60. I had a "superstarter" for 6 or 7 years and it became intermitant so I bought one of Keith's starters and have had no issues with it since puting it in 4 or 5 years ago. If you drive your Elan every day, maybe you can live with the stock equipment but my Elan gets out once or twice a week in the summer and not much in the colder months (no heater or top).

I think every one needs to do what they think is right for them but I just want to get in the Elan and go for a drive when the mood strikes, I don't want to be concerned if its going to start and mess around with jumper cables and battery chargers, or battery tenders. Just get in and start it and go, just like a modern car, how strange is that?


Gary

[denicholls2]

Most modern batteries are rubbish. I have had 3 batteries replaced under warranty in the last 10 years from various cars. No batteries like the periods of inactivity but they should be able to last out the warranty period.

The vendors never seem surprised when one comes back, they just replace it.

I tried an expensive Optima battery in my Elan and even it only lasted 3 years, all reports told me they last 8-10 years.

I will just keep trying different brands until I find one that lasts.

Peter
66S2

I doubt you ever will, at least not in a lead-acid battery. Battery longevity is primarily a factor of basic chemistry, not quality. The basic chemistry applies to all batteries. What differs among brands is the exposure of the battery plates to acid -- more exposure offers more CCA, but unless the battery is also increased in size, usually trades off durability because each cell is smaller and more easily damaged by abuse.

If you are going through batteries at this pace, your problem is not the brand but the use profile. Consider simple adjustments to your behavior and any battery should last a minimum of five years. I've personally never had a battery that didn't except a motorcyle battery, though car batteries usually don't last much more than 8. I've been driving for 35 years and have a tendency to drive cars to death, so I've acquired a fair bit of experiential data.

- Don't let batteries sit flat for long periods
- Don't overcharge batteries (leave them on trickle chargers not designed for float service) You will cook them dry and/or warp the plates, causing them to short internally.
- Don't deep discharge a battery -- it's a killer. And if it does happen, never leave a discharged battery sitting in that state. It will die quickly.

A typical lead-acid battery actually prefers charge/discharge cycles (mild ones) to being maintained at a constant charged state. Regular use in an automotive application is well-matched to this behavior.

[Lincoln62]

Thanks for the info.

I knew that keeping them topped up was good for them. I assumed the short life was due to the lack of purity of the lead in the plates. The small Panasonic battery in my race car lasted 8 years with only infrequent use which I put down to better quality.

I must buy some battery conditioners for my cars to keep the batteries charged when I am not using them. If it makes them last 5-8 years it will be worth the expense.

Peter
66S2

[aussieelan]

Thanks everyone for your input.

Today I fitted a 550CCA battery (original from PO was 305CCA), cleaned up all the earths & connections ... and vroom vroom .. started and ran better than ever! Lets just hope that it will start again tomorrow

Interesting ideas with replacing the starter with a geared unit ... probably not required atm. Also as my gearbox is an Isuzu 5 speed conversion it has a Jap starter not a Luc s... maybe the reason why it works

Thanks again for everyones help

Andrew