How far can you go without a belt?

[dgently]

Some notes from a muppet...

Last night I noticed I had lost my generator and had only battery power. It was dark and raining. I limped it home, and on inspection found that the belt was missing, presumed having a good time.

Have looked back in the archives, I realise with horror that the temperature creep I noticed in the morning was down to the same issue.

I drove 170 miles without a generator or water pump?

[hatman]

Well, if you haven't done so yet, I'd offer a prayer of thanks to St Christopher if I were you.

[garyeanderson]

I'd guess if you made it home and there was still a water/antifreeze mix (you do have some antifreeze in the system don't you?) in the radiator you propably didn't do any harm. Once the coolent is gone the cylinder head temp raises to the point where the head warps when cooled and if heated enough softens the alloy head to the point where the washers under the head bolts sinks into head. The head gasket does not last long as the tension on the head bolts is lost. It sound like the rain may have saved you...

Gary

[dgently]

I am wracked with guilt - I can't beleive I could be so stupid. I was advised by the PO that since he fitted a new rad, fan and thermostat, the meter could give a false maximum some times which could be corrected by switching off the engine and restarting to get a true reading.

I allowed this to fog me into ignoring the fact the the temperature was rising, and was falling back quickly when I idled. I did stop and took the rad cap off to find that the water was not excessively hot, and so decided to carry on regardless

I could have sworn that the ammeter was reading normally at that time (didn't notice until last night), but I could be wrong.

I guess I will just fit a belt then suck it and see?

[65 Lotus]

Not much else you can do at this point. Maybe there was enough air coming through the radiator when in motion to drive the fan a bit.

[richboyd]

Without a water pump to circulate the coolant, the flow of cool air (rainy day) through your radiator does not account for much. The temperature of coolant in your head and (to a lesser extent) block would be driven solely by the heat of combustion and ambient air temperature is irrelevant. I would not want to drive 5 miles without circulating coolant (no water pump function); 170 miles is bad news.

If nothing seized (pistons expanding in cylinders, cam followers in bores, valves in guides, etc.) you are very fortunate. But ... pay attention to those that cite softening of the head's aluminum, etc. After 170 miles, you DID do damage. I would have expected a major war to occur within the engine after 170 miles without coolant circulation. Perhaps the fan belt only quit on the last two miles from home? That may be your saving answer.

At the very least, I would re-torque the head bolts. Better, remove the head and replace the head gasket. If this does the trick - you are more than lucky.

[neilsjuke]

The fan belt would likely go when load was put on the generator when the lights went on,You should have got the ign light come on.
It maybe wise to do a compression test.
Neil

[dgently]

Sincere thanks to all respondants - I hope you don't mind the chatter but I'm nervous as hell.

I'm going to lay out the chronology, mostly so I can feel like I'm doing something

On Saturday I replaced the oil and filter. When I tried to start it it turn a couple of times and then just gave me the solenoid click. It is normally 100% reliable starting.

I went back under to see had I knocked off some earth wires while wrestling with the (screw off) filter, but saw nothing. Rocked it in gear, rapped the starter with a hammer, no dice.

Sunday morning I bump started it to set off on a 75 mile run. 20 miles in I notice the temp guage was sitting just below the red. Stopped to have a look, took off the rad cap, a little bit of steam but the coolant (inc antifreeze) temp seemed normal. Failed to check the belt. Car started normally.

Did a few short runs after I got there, car starting fine each time. Temp guage continued to creep gradually up to below the red line.

I am 80% sure the ammeter was reading normally. I have an electric fan, I feel sure I'd have noticed is sitting on drain.

Did the return 75 miles, then turned around to do a 10 mile run to the city. Noticed ignition light on and ammeter reading "drain" within about 2 miles, was driving in rain. Figured I'd lost the generator, failed to remember the water pump, kept going (on my way to an L Cohen concert) parked it up worrying about whether my battery could get it home.

Was so preoccupied about the battery that when it started first time, I just drove home on sidelights, flew (80mph) out the well lit motorway thinking that was the shrewd thing to do. Temp never went into red, but it's an old meter.

Got home, had a look, noticed the missing belt. Checked the forum archives and kicked myself repeatedly. Can't say the engine seemed especially hot, but I probably wouldn't notice.

This evening I checked the dipstick & rad cap - no sign of oil/water emulsion.. No visible signs of heat damage apart from some sooty discolouration on the HT leads where they touch the cam cover. I think I can see some of the fan belt stuck (welded) between the back of the generator & the engine. Water & generator pulleys turn freely.

I overfilled the oil, the stick is still reading a little over full. The oil looks and smells normal. I topped up the rad to see was it all gone - it took 1 litre to fill

I'm praying richboyd9 is right, and that the belt didn't disappear before evening. I'm praying Gary Anderson is right and the roadspray helped.

Now I'm thinking I might as well charge the battery, fit a belt and hope for the best.

Have I anything to lose?

[lotuselan2]

Remember that there is a natural thermosiphon in your cooling system. The hot water rises in the motor and the cool water sinks in the radiator. This sets up a natural circulation. That is why the hoses are arranged the way they are. You will often see the term "pump assisted thermosiphon cooling". Yes, we all need water pumps but there is a circulation even without it. A cool night and a hard drive on the motorway may have actually been a whole lot better than tip-toeing in traffic.

The best data point you gave was adding 1 liter of water; that was good news.

Large chemical plant distillation columns run on the thermosiphon principle; pumps are considered excess cost except where fouling is an issue.
Ken
Chem Eng.

[billwill]

I did a similar damn stupid thing with a VW caravanette onece, that has an air-cooled engine !

I stopped when oil smoke was pouring out of the back of the van, I had damn near exploded the engine oil it was so hot. The engine would not start after I stopped; the rings on the pistons had cooked completely and there was no compression.

It was RAC rescue time and later a complete new engine.

[tcsoar]

Hi,

You said that you had a look when you got home, was this straight away? Only ask because when I have overcooked engines in the past one thing that I have noticed is the increased sounds of the engine cooling down, lots of extra metalic ticking etc. that was noticably different from the normal sounds you hear when the car has stopped after a run.

Chris.

[alaric]

Sounds like you were lucky. Surely the water would have boiled if the head had become too hot, especially when you took off the rad cap releasing the pressure - it would have ejected a lot of water once it started to boil.

Good luck.

Sean.

[ill_will]

my guess is the battery/overheating problems might have been caused by a loose fan belt (slipping on pump/generator), possibly before the weekend? It's a big co-incidence that both problems were happening at the same time, and points the finger at whatever is connecting the two 'systems', i.e. the belt. Did you notice it running hotter than usual when you last used it before the oil change?

if you got the solenoid clicking syndrome it's a classic indication of a slightly-too-flat battery. Can you see any indication that the alternator/gen bolt had slipped at all? or did you get oil all over it during the change?

as Ken says, there is some circulation through the engine without the pump, and if you only lost a litre that's good news. I'd do the head gasket and check everything over whilst it's in pieces.

will

(mech. eng.)

[elansprint71]

Your engine was trying to tell you not to go to the L Cohen concert.

God, I even feel depressed after typing his name.


Start it up and see- pay no attention to doom and gloom Johnnies- you've got enough problems with your choice of music!!!

[denicholls2]

Yes, there is convection cooling at play regardless of the presence of an active pump. BUT:

The temperature gauge gets its reading from the cylinder head, which is always the hottest place in the circuit when running.

Checking the radiator only checks that the convected heat has not boiled the entire system. Not much of a check, IMHO.

I agree with those who offer you are both very lucky and that your engine has not escaped unharmed. Your temperature gauge has correctly affirmed this.

My recommendation would be to retorque the head, keeping a close watch on the difference between starting tighness and ending tightness in each bolt location. Follow standard backoff and retorque procedures.
If you see a lot of variance (considerable tightening beyond prior location required in certain areas) you might want to plan for future expenditure, particulary if these correlate with known hot-spots.
I would not dally in the retorquing. As another poster notes, any softening has left the head gasket's seal potentially compromised. The retorque is your best defense against this problem manifesting itself unhappily as white crankcase sludge. Good luck; you seem to have already had a fair share.