Baffled by baffled Sump

[miked]

Guys,

Re: suitability for track day/ hill climb Elan

Anyone see this on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... L:RTQ:UK:1

Saw it and bid just for interest. Had a gander and cleaned up a bit. Someone or a company have spent a serious amount of time on this. It has curved baffle plates. Also has a filter built into that pick up nipple that is sticking out. Can hear a trap door but not figured out exactly what the layout is inside. Has a tube across the bottom that the filter plug thing fits in. Can see a hole looking down to the sump pan (where it pulls the oil).

Not sure whether it will fit an Elan, need to have a look. Anti-roll bar may be close. Wing might be close. Has a small filter because of wing.

Pump looked a bit iffy but it is flakey paint that has reacted. Could I change the guts of the pump with new parts if main body is sound? Anyone seen this before? Or is it a home made job?

I see it was not compliant to FIA. I don't know anything about all the race stuff. In the 60's would these sort of mods be allowed. Is the FIA bit just about historic compliance? Sorry for ignorance.
Mike

[iain.hamlton]

Mike, that is interesting. I wish I'd have found it myself a year ago; instead a baffled a standard sump myself. Although not as elaborate as this, mine works (on occasional track-days) and was quite satisfying to do.

Of course you are right: there is no guarantee that it will fit an Elan. For that money I'd have bought it too and measured it carefully. It is relatively easy to fit a sump on a +2 with the removable cross-member. On an Elan, it would be touch-and-go whether you have to remove the engine.

I do not know about the FIA regs, but suspect the infrigement maybe due to the rearranged scavanging. The normal arrangement, including mine, uses the standard pick-up and pump. Yours is almost a dry-sump set-up.

Good find, and good luck!

best regards, iain

[miked]

Iain,

Thanks for reply. My motor is still in build on the engine stand. I have made a baffled one using Rohan's instrucions. It is fitted and looks the business. I could not resist having a gander at this. The oil pick-up on the ebay one does look a bit clever. Looks rough on the picture but it is paint not "knife and fork" weld. Will Nitromose (spelling) and split today.

Mike


Been having a shufty. Sounds like it has 2 "for and aft" doors. Sounds like one door "side to side" (could be two). By listening!

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

An interesting looking sump.
It's not just baffled, it's someone's own interpretation of a dry sump. There is no place where a suitably a suitably modified oil pump suction pipe could reach the bottom & middle of the pan.
I think the union brazed onto the extended side of the pan would be connected to the scavenge side of a dry sump pump.
I don't understand what purpose the extension would serve.
The fundamentals of a dry sump system is to get all surplus oil away from the rotating bits.
Normally you would expect to see the scavenge connection in the middle of the bottom of the sump (in the case os a single scavenge pump). I can see no sign of an oil pump in the one picture I looked at.
Not an FIA expert, but as far as I know, historic Elans, 26R's etc. must race on historic type race tyres etc. & the engine lubrication must be standard wet sump.
There were / are other classes (e.g. Modsports)where dry sump are permitted.
A long time ago I made a dry sump from a standard steel pan for a dry sumped 1650cc Cosworth pre-crossflow engine (Lazenby oil pump) which I put into my Mk14 Elite.
Plenty of room in the engine bay for an oil tank, unlike the Elan.
The sump conversion is quite simple really (I copied a Cosworth steel sump of the period) but lots of welding. (Er yes the Elite did go very well, the bug started with me long before Zetec Elans )
Cheers
John

[rgh0]

John

The sump design is intended to work by simulating the top of a dry sump set up with its closely wrapped full tray around the crank but uses the bottom of the original sump suitably extended as the oil storage tank rather than a separate tank.

Thus no scavenge pump required but the standard pump is modified to take its suction from the sump via the external line from the sump extension. The extension is to provide enough capacity so that suction is not lost in corners.

I looked at this sort of design for my Elan at one stage as it is technically maybe legal in our historic racing which requires wet sumps but allows them to be modified. However the benefits looked small compared to a properly baffled normal wet sump arrangement with its internal pickup and the external oil line could be illegal in our racing as while internal engine mods are free, external appearance must be standard in most aspects and the external mods to oil pump and suction line could be deemed illegal. I presume this would be similar in a European FIA historic car.

regards
Rohan

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Oh yes that has reminded me now.
We did a similar thing for the M52S 6 cylinder engines for the M3. It had a sand cast oil pan with split levels.
On the back of the standard oil pump we put another set of rotors and a scavenge pipe into the other section of the sump. An expensive modification which stopped the hydraulic lash adjusters from running out of oil in the corners.
I developed a set of baffles that could be retrofitted to the standard oil pan which worked just as well & a lot cheaper.
I was lucky enough to be able to test it out on the Nurburgring .
Nobody took me up on it though, they'd already spent their money

[cabc26b]

Over here this commonly called the California wetsump - Also home to the California twincam , you, know 200+ horsepower , from 1600cc .....Right...

Never seen one before as I don't race on the left coast and am permitted to run a drysump with no penalty.

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Dread to think what the Texans can get out of a twincam