new starter

[chrishewett]

Brian,
I have only done about 300 miles on the new starter.
What with going to Magney Cours just after the problem appeared and my daughters 18th birthday barbeque this weekend (great weather we are having!), I havn't been able to remove the offending unit yet. My original starter had ten teeth and the new one had nine, this worries me.
I will report back as soon as I have removed it.
Just when I thought everything was going well!
Chris

[elanmac]

Chris, if the engine will turn over by hand, it looks as though it is the solenoid that is holding the gear in mesh. I fitted a new starter to my Astra and after a couple of hundred miles I could hear the starter turning over with the engine. I stopped the engine then found it wouldn't start again. I then tapped the solenoid with a metal bar. The engine then started normally, that was 5000 mls ago. No trouble since.
elanmac

[chrishewett]

Update.
I removed the starter this morning. I could see that it was jammed into the ring gear. I had it tested and it is ruined. The solenoid throws out the gear but the starter does not spin. Could this be because I drove the car with the starter engaged?
The ring gear has 110 teeth and the old starter had ten teeth. New starter has nine teeth.
I have just ordered a new Lucas starter with the correct number of teeth from Chrisneils, I was hoping not to have to make a retrograde step like this but I am hoping to go to the Silverstone classic and just want to get the car on the road again.
I will email the supplier in the states but meanwhile I would have to caution against buying one of these units.
Chris

[robertverhey]

Hello

Nine tooth pinion is correct for Twin Cam motors I believe

Robert

[chrishewett]

Robert,
Originally there were 107 teeth on the ring gear requiring a nine tooth starter. Replacement ring gear has 110 teeth and require the ten tooth starter, all suppliers keep both units. My ring gear has obviously been replaced and has 110 teeth. This is what I think the problem was. Doc Martin, who supplied the starter said that nine teeth works on any ring gear, but it appears not to work on mine.
I am still looking into the problem but meanwhile will not take the risk of another failure. This time it failed on my drive, next time I could be in France!
Chris

[alan71]

Chris,
How did you connect your starter? If you keep the existing wiring and link the 2 terminals on the new starter together this may cause it to be slow to disengage.
When you release the starter switch the engine is turning the starter motor until it disengages and is now acting as a generator. If the 2 terminals are connected together the current will flow through the solenoid and may prevent the starter disengaging (the hold in current is less than the current required to operate the solenoid initially).

Alan.

[chrishewett]

Alan,
That is exactly what I did, as recommended by the suplier. I had wondered if this may have been a factor. I have emailed Doc Martin and await his reply.
Chris

[bcmc33]

Chris,
From what I remember when I fitted mine within a couple of weeks of you is that it was a standard Nippondenso starter with the fixing bosses machined off and a universal Lucas fit adaptor plate screwed on.
I bye-passed the internal solenoid in order to continue using the existing bulkhead (firewall) solenoid in the manner prescribed by the Doc Martin instructions.
I cannot see there being any doubt as to the efficacy of this bye-pass system as the starter will not operate until the pinion is fully engaged with the flywheel. Again from what I can remember; the pinion returns to the rest position under spring pressure when the power is off.
It appears that the spring pressure was not sufficient to disengage the pinion ? hence your question: why?
It has rightly been said already that when the ring gear drives the starter it becomes a generator ? and this can?t be good. But when the engine starts there must be a period when the ring gear is driving the starter. i.e. For the time it takes to let go the key and the time it takes for the pinion to disengage.
So there must be some sort of safety feature to prevent this from happening ? such as a simple one-way clutch device that allows the ring gear to be driven by the pinion, but prevents the ring gear driving the pinion. From what you described, if there is such a device, it did not work.

Have you taken the offending starter to pieces yet?

I could be wrong, but I have some belief that the starter on the Europa was pre-engaged ? but did this refer to the Twink version?

Brian Clarke
(1972 Sprint)

[alan71]

The problem with the way I think you have wired it is when you release the key as the engine fires the original solenoid contacts open and disconnect the starter, but the 2 terminals on the starter remain connected to each other. Any current generated as the engine now turns the starter motor is fed to the internal solenoid which may delay the return of the pinion. The normal wiring of a pre engaged starter is with the small terminal connected to the start position of the ignition switch which will be disconnected as you release the key.
How much of a problem the this really is I don?t know but I was recommended not to do it that way.

Alan

[chrishewett]

I very much appreciate the input from you guys.
I have emailed Doc Martin with the details of the problem and informed him of the discussion on this forum. As a supplier it is in his interests to deal with this problem whether it is a fault of the starter or fitting or whatever. I don't want anyone spitting their dummey out over this as happened over my engine rebuild problems. This time I will be exact in what I say ( not that I wasn't over that issue!). The fact is that a new unit should not fail in this way and I want to know why, even if it is my fault in some way.
I will add that when I went to my local motor factors with the starter to buy the bits for the solenoid bypass I met a guy who had fitted several of these to british cars. He said that the bypass method would burnout the solenoid. At the time I said that this was recommended by the supplier and so that was what I would do. Maybe I should have listened.
I havn't had a reply from Doc Martin yet but when I do I will report back.
Chris

[bcmc33]

I can?t see any difference between bye-pass and no bye-pass. Whichever system is used the power to the solenoid and then the motor is on for as long as the key is turned in the ignition.

Chris, Until you get an analysis of your broken motor we?re all shooting in the dark.

Brian Clarke
(1972 Sprint)

[chrishewett]

This is the reply I have recieved from Kieth Gustaffson.


Chris

Sorry to hear of your troubles with the starter. I think if as you
surmise the starter was engaged while driving, you will find a rather
interesting assortment of small metal pieces inside the starter housing,
none of which will be useful for starting a vehicle at any time in the
future. I will work with Martin to get you straightened out.


I do not personally follow the lotuselan.net site, but read the thread
you mentioned. Let me put a few things to rest. There is one part number
for all Elan +2 flywheel ring gear combinations [A026 E 0717] 1967-1973.
Neither I nor anyone I know has heard any different. There are 2 part
numbers for starters, but they are both 36 series numbers, meaning they
are s3 elan numbers, well before any change to 10 tooth pinions. Any
change made in the early seventies would have to have a 45, 50 or
perhaps 74. All Europa twin cams have the same starter with nine tooth
pinions, and they cross over the period that Elans were going from 9 to
10 teeth

From this we can tell that there is no difference in the starters, they
are considered interchangeable. One story was that Lucas was having
issues with starters sticking[interestingly enough] and the ten tooth
was an attempt at a fix.

If you would like, I can crawl under my own 1970 Elan plus 2 and count
the teeth on the flywheel, or my S2 super seven with a 601m block and
original flywheel and ring gear and count those teeth, but as I have
said, they will have the same number.

Back to the starter in your car. There are a few reasons that this can
happen. The starter clutch is the most likely failure that would cause
this to happen. The pinion gear should turn freely clockwise and lock
solid ccw. If it is locked in both directions,l this is most likely the
fault. The other reasons would be related to the wiring, and you should
check the ignition switch, firewall solenoid and any other places in the
circuit before installing a new starter.

Keith
Gustafson Specialty Products


Having checked, the pinion gear is as it should be.
I am not sure this answer is of much use sofar.
Chris

[alan71]

Chris,

If you have got the starter off the car, earth the case and connect the battery to the small terminal. The pinion should move out and turn at low power (to help it engage). With the battery connected to the large terminal when you connect the small terminal the pinion should move out and the motor run at full power. At least that?s what happened with mine, a Brise I got from Paul Matty.

Alan.

[alan71]

In case you were wondering why I was testing a new part it was just curiosity, I usually take things apart first but I resisted the temptation this time.

If anyone is thinking of fitting one I can definitively recommend it, it?s one of the best mod?s I?ve done.

Alan

[bcmc33]

Alan,

I did exactly the same test on my starter before fitting it.

In the wonderful world of hindsight, and this thread, I should have tested the pinion in both directions and not just ib the drive mode.

Another piece of hindsight for this thread ? how many teeth did the Brise pinion have?


Brian Clarke
(1972 Sprint)