Brise Starters
22 posts
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Post by: Hamish Coutts » Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:34 am
Morning folks,
Finally got everything back together after servicing my carbs and fitting a nice new Brise starter.
The starter got a baptism of fire last night as I tried to start the engine. It took an hour of churning then trying to find why it wouldn't start, churning again. I checked fuel levels, electrics, timing (just in case I had moved something) and then checked them again. Finally it dawned on my thick skull to change the plugs (they were a fairly new set) and bingo it started first turn of the key.
During all this I was a bit worried that I would damage the starter but it didn't even get warm and neither did it flatten the battery. It also sounds a lot less noisy than the old Lucas unit and turns the engine over faster.
If you are thinking of changing your starter this one is worth a thought. I got mine from 'Mattys - they aint cheap though.
Oh, and I have no connection with either Brise or Mattys. I'm a boring financial services person working in Edinburgh but I think that praise should be given where it is due.
Hamish.
Finally got everything back together after servicing my carbs and fitting a nice new Brise starter.
The starter got a baptism of fire last night as I tried to start the engine. It took an hour of churning then trying to find why it wouldn't start, churning again. I checked fuel levels, electrics, timing (just in case I had moved something) and then checked them again. Finally it dawned on my thick skull to change the plugs (they were a fairly new set) and bingo it started first turn of the key.
During all this I was a bit worried that I would damage the starter but it didn't even get warm and neither did it flatten the battery. It also sounds a lot less noisy than the old Lucas unit and turns the engine over faster.
If you are thinking of changing your starter this one is worth a thought. I got mine from 'Mattys - they aint cheap though.
Oh, and I have no connection with either Brise or Mattys. I'm a boring financial services person working in Edinburgh but I think that praise should be given where it is due.
Hamish.
"One day I'll finish the restoration - honest, darling, just a few more years....."
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Post by: steveww » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:39 am
Judging by the type of posts at the moment most people are finishing off their winter projects and bringing their Lotus back to life after the winter, myself included.
I had a little scare yesterday. I had sent off the steering wheel to the Lotus factory for a retrim, they told all was done and it was now at the dealers awaiting collection. So I called the dealers and they said "What steering wheel?"
I explained that original signed steering wheels are harder to find than hens teeth and that they change hands on ebay for over ?600. This appeared to do the trick as they then said "Oh that steering wheel". I will pick it up today.
Unlike Hamish the twinc started first pull for me
However I think it sounds like it has a loose tappet, a definite ticking noise. This should not be as one of the tasks I did over the winter was to re-shim the tappets. Looks like an other cam cover gasket and double check. Good news is that compression is 13bar (189psi) across all cylinders and a leak test showed no leaks
BTW: Still have the old Lucas starter installed. So far so good.
I had a little scare yesterday. I had sent off the steering wheel to the Lotus factory for a retrim, they told all was done and it was now at the dealers awaiting collection. So I called the dealers and they said "What steering wheel?"
I explained that original signed steering wheels are harder to find than hens teeth and that they change hands on ebay for over ?600. This appeared to do the trick as they then said "Oh that steering wheel". I will pick it up today.
Unlike Hamish the twinc started first pull for me
However I think it sounds like it has a loose tappet, a definite ticking noise. This should not be as one of the tasks I did over the winter was to re-shim the tappets. Looks like an other cam cover gasket and double check. Good news is that compression is 13bar (189psi) across all cylinders and a leak test showed no leaks
BTW: Still have the old Lucas starter installed. So far so good.
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Post by: Jonty5speed » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:34 am
Steve,
Off topic I know but I had a similar problem with my steering wheel after sending it to the factory for a retrim - the one they returned wasn't mine! After a few phone calls to Bell and Colvill mine was eventually found at Christopher Neil's. Luckily I had taken photo's of my steering wheel before I sent it off and could easily identify it - well worth doing. The whole process has taken about 6 weeks from start to finish but the finished wheel is superb!
Jon
Off topic I know but I had a similar problem with my steering wheel after sending it to the factory for a retrim - the one they returned wasn't mine! After a few phone calls to Bell and Colvill mine was eventually found at Christopher Neil's. Luckily I had taken photo's of my steering wheel before I sent it off and could easily identify it - well worth doing. The whole process has taken about 6 weeks from start to finish but the finished wheel is superb!
Jon
1972 Red Plus 2 S130/5
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Post by: ianf » Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:37 pm
Steve,
I'm not a hugely technical bod however if this helps all the best.
I had a mysterious tap at the top of the engine which got worse as it warmed up. It was on the intake side around No4 pot. Talking it over with a friend in the pub a couple of weeks ago I reminded myself of a previous tapping noise on a different car (not Lotus) which I eventually traced to a loose exhaust manifold. As the gas escapes it makes a tapping noise. Back to the elan I lifted the rear carb - tapping stopped - and when the carb was tightened (not too much) the imagined head rebuild went away. Intake pulses must tap like exhaust ones.
Ian
I'm not a hugely technical bod however if this helps all the best.
I had a mysterious tap at the top of the engine which got worse as it warmed up. It was on the intake side around No4 pot. Talking it over with a friend in the pub a couple of weeks ago I reminded myself of a previous tapping noise on a different car (not Lotus) which I eventually traced to a loose exhaust manifold. As the gas escapes it makes a tapping noise. Back to the elan I lifted the rear carb - tapping stopped - and when the carb was tightened (not too much) the imagined head rebuild went away. Intake pulses must tap like exhaust ones.
Ian
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Post by: steveww » Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:24 pm
This site and you guys are just great. I knew the carb mounting would be OK as I have only just put them back on. So I checked the exhaust manifold and sure enough some rather loose nuts. Having given them a tweek the ticking has gone. The only down side is that one stud appears to have stripped as it will not go any tighter than it is 
Hopefully it will hang in there until next winter when I will have the head off and helicoil/taptight the thread.
Hopefully it will hang in there until next winter when I will have the head off and helicoil/taptight the thread.-
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Post by: Hamish Coutts » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:58 pm
Absolutely Doug.
They are amazing little things and beautifully made. Hopefully it'll last for a few years. Car started first touch of the key tonight - no problems.
Hamish.
They are amazing little things and beautifully made. Hopefully it'll last for a few years. Car started first touch of the key tonight - no problems.
Hamish.
"One day I'll finish the restoration - honest, darling, just a few more years....."
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Post by: Hamish Coutts » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:35 am
Sean,
No it's not a pre-engaged starter. It works on the same principle as the Lucas but meshes with the flywheel teeth from the front (the opposite side from the Lucas) so the mechanism is much smaller and the spindle much shorter. The drive dog looks different as well - with only 9 teeth compared to the 10 on my Lucas.
Suppose it just uses a more modern design. Certainly works well.
Regards,
Hamish.
No it's not a pre-engaged starter. It works on the same principle as the Lucas but meshes with the flywheel teeth from the front (the opposite side from the Lucas) so the mechanism is much smaller and the spindle much shorter. The drive dog looks different as well - with only 9 teeth compared to the 10 on my Lucas.
Suppose it just uses a more modern design. Certainly works well.
Regards,
Hamish.
"One day I'll finish the restoration - honest, darling, just a few more years....."
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Hamish Coutts - Third Gear
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Post by: alaric » Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:47 pm
Hi.
Home now, and have checked my receipt from Mattys. It's referred to as a pre-engaged reduction starter motor. I queried the item delivered with them at the time and didn't really get a conclusive response. If it's not pre-engaged then I'm not happy that I've not been sold what was described to me. I was initially concerned because my unit did not look the same as the one pictured on their web page i.e. there is no solenoid on the side.
I've checked the operation of the unit on the engine, and if I power the solenoid connection the drive wheel pops out and engages neatly with the ring gear on the flywheel each time, with no agressive action. If I take the motor out and repeat the same, the drive wheel pops out quickly then rotates with low torque - I can stop it by hand.
So the question is, if I connet the main current cable, is the drive wheel fully powered before engagement with the flywheel ring gear, or is main power switched in / delayed until it is engaged. If the latter then fine and I can see the ring gear surviving, and this is what I would define as a pre-engaged starter motor. If the former then the teeth will be getting a hard smack each time I start the engine, and I should be reversing the ring gear on the flywheel to help the teeth mesh.
The action of the drive wheel certainly doesn't appear to be intertially driven in the same way as the Lucas. It pops out very quickly as though it's drived by a solenoid.
Are Mattys still advertising this as pre-engaged? Are they still supplying the same unit? Have they now stopped referring to it as a pre-engaged reduction unit? I notice it's no longer on the web site. The body of mine looks slightly smaller than the original Lucas unit, and there is no solenoid on the side.
Obviously I'm not a happy customer at the moment. I am particularly unhappy that I emailed them pictures of the unit that they supplied and the one on the web questioning whether they'd supplied the right one. Since then I've been telling people what a great pre-engaged starter motor it is since it's so compact... Now I'm being told it's actually not pre-engaged.
Having said all that, the motor is very good, and doesn't have the loud clunk associated with an inertial unit like the lucas. I wouldn't expect to be paying the same amount of money if it's not pre-engaged.
Sean.
Home now, and have checked my receipt from Mattys. It's referred to as a pre-engaged reduction starter motor. I queried the item delivered with them at the time and didn't really get a conclusive response. If it's not pre-engaged then I'm not happy that I've not been sold what was described to me. I was initially concerned because my unit did not look the same as the one pictured on their web page i.e. there is no solenoid on the side.
I've checked the operation of the unit on the engine, and if I power the solenoid connection the drive wheel pops out and engages neatly with the ring gear on the flywheel each time, with no agressive action. If I take the motor out and repeat the same, the drive wheel pops out quickly then rotates with low torque - I can stop it by hand.
So the question is, if I connet the main current cable, is the drive wheel fully powered before engagement with the flywheel ring gear, or is main power switched in / delayed until it is engaged. If the latter then fine and I can see the ring gear surviving, and this is what I would define as a pre-engaged starter motor. If the former then the teeth will be getting a hard smack each time I start the engine, and I should be reversing the ring gear on the flywheel to help the teeth mesh.
The action of the drive wheel certainly doesn't appear to be intertially driven in the same way as the Lucas. It pops out very quickly as though it's drived by a solenoid.
Are Mattys still advertising this as pre-engaged? Are they still supplying the same unit? Have they now stopped referring to it as a pre-engaged reduction unit? I notice it's no longer on the web site. The body of mine looks slightly smaller than the original Lucas unit, and there is no solenoid on the side.
Obviously I'm not a happy customer at the moment. I am particularly unhappy that I emailed them pictures of the unit that they supplied and the one on the web questioning whether they'd supplied the right one. Since then I've been telling people what a great pre-engaged starter motor it is since it's so compact... Now I'm being told it's actually not pre-engaged.
Having said all that, the motor is very good, and doesn't have the loud clunk associated with an inertial unit like the lucas. I wouldn't expect to be paying the same amount of money if it's not pre-engaged.
Sean.
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Post by: dougweall » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:15 pm
Sean,
FWIW, as I have said previously I am a convert to the Brise starter motor.
I have also said that there are no nasty noises when starting my car, at the moment I have the engine out of my car and as such had a look at the ring gear. I have to say, from the bashing I have given the starter over the last few months trying to determine my engine problems both the starter and ring gear show no ill effects whatsoever.
Hope this will go some way to help you determine whether you have done the right thing or not.
I think the only thing that matters is that these starters do NOT appear to chew the ring gear or the starter dog as per Lucas and they do their job very effeciently.
Doug.
FWIW, as I have said previously I am a convert to the Brise starter motor.
I have also said that there are no nasty noises when starting my car, at the moment I have the engine out of my car and as such had a look at the ring gear. I have to say, from the bashing I have given the starter over the last few months trying to determine my engine problems both the starter and ring gear show no ill effects whatsoever.
Hope this will go some way to help you determine whether you have done the right thing or not.
I think the only thing that matters is that these starters do NOT appear to chew the ring gear or the starter dog as per Lucas and they do their job very effeciently.
Doug.
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Post by: Hamish Coutts » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:26 pm
Sean,
When I ordered mine, my conversation with Mattys was around a gear reduction starter that worked a lot better than the old Lucas unit. The Brise they sell is built to withstand a hard life starting racing engines. My engine is a road engine so I recon that the starter would have a far easier life starting that. I didn't ask about a pre-engaged starter specifically and although I talked about a Gustafsen, they were not aware of one (must admit, I thought that a wee bit surprising at the time). However, I have ended up with a Brise which I like. It is far less raucus than the Lucas and a hell of a lot smoother. So, I'm not too worried if it's not a pre-engaged starter.
The Brise seems to work very well. If it's a modern version of an inertia starter, so what. As long as the mechanical functionality is up to scratch does it really matter?
OK the price may seem to be a bit high but compared to what?
The motor is very small and all the parts seem very well made. If it stays working for the next few years then I am happy but I'm making sure that the receipt is kept in a safe place - just in case!
Sorry to hear that Mattys sold you a Brise as a pre-engaged starter. I must admit I'm surprised, as I have dealt with them for a while now without any problems. Maybe it was a 'mis communication'? I have usually found Roy very helpful.
Regards,
Hamish
When I ordered mine, my conversation with Mattys was around a gear reduction starter that worked a lot better than the old Lucas unit. The Brise they sell is built to withstand a hard life starting racing engines. My engine is a road engine so I recon that the starter would have a far easier life starting that. I didn't ask about a pre-engaged starter specifically and although I talked about a Gustafsen, they were not aware of one (must admit, I thought that a wee bit surprising at the time). However, I have ended up with a Brise which I like. It is far less raucus than the Lucas and a hell of a lot smoother. So, I'm not too worried if it's not a pre-engaged starter.
The Brise seems to work very well. If it's a modern version of an inertia starter, so what. As long as the mechanical functionality is up to scratch does it really matter?
OK the price may seem to be a bit high but compared to what?
The motor is very small and all the parts seem very well made. If it stays working for the next few years then I am happy but I'm making sure that the receipt is kept in a safe place - just in case!
Sorry to hear that Mattys sold you a Brise as a pre-engaged starter. I must admit I'm surprised, as I have dealt with them for a while now without any problems. Maybe it was a 'mis communication'? I have usually found Roy very helpful.
Regards,
Hamish
"One day I'll finish the restoration - honest, darling, just a few more years....."
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Post by: M100 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:48 pm
Just to add fuel to the fire, the latest SAE journal has a short article on a very similar design that is being touted by a major component supplier as the "latest thing"
See
http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/4906/starter4ii.jpg
See
http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/4906/starter4ii.jpg
Martin
72 Sprint DHC
72 Sprint DHC
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