Horrible engine noise

[Billmack]

I have heard that if you are going to drive through right hand sweepers fast the time honored way to safeguard your bearings is to put an extra quart in the sump. I have rebuilt a few of these type of engines both twin cam and Ford crossflow and found the pumps very slow indeed to prime themselves once a bit of air is sucked in. ID love to see what an expert on pumps thinks about doing something to the pumps so they don't get airbound so easily. Other engines I have built build oil pressure much faster when spun

[rgh0]

I didn't take pictures of the parts in the garage.
I saw the problematic connecting rod which is well damaged on the part that rotates on the crankshaft.

For the QED references I am not mistaken for an original engine?

The QED parts you listed are upgraded parts intended for club level and track day competition use with a developed engine. Not as expensive as the best full race components but better than the original parts which you may struggle to find new. Used original ones come up often on Ebay. If only one rod is damaged you can often find single used rods listed. The crank may be capable of being ground undersize depending on the whether its has been ground before and the damage done.

cheers
Rohan

[rgh0]

I have heard that if you are going to drive through right hand sweepers fast the time honored way to safeguard your bearings is to put an extra quart in the sump. I have rebuilt a few of these type of engines both twin cam and Ford crossflow and found the pumps very slow indeed to prime themselves once a bit of air is sucked in. ID love to see what an expert on pumps thinks about doing something to the pumps so they don't get airbound so easily. Other engines I have built build oil pressure much faster when spun

The most common cause of bearing failure in 6 bolt twin cam is certainly loss of oil suction in right hand bends due to the pickup being located on the righthand side of the sump.

The pump itself is a relatively standard design and problems getting it to prime usually relate to excessive wear in the pump assembly. If the oil passages are full and the pump is in good condition I find the pump primes and produces pressure very quickly in a few seconds at cranking speed.

Over filling the sump may help prevent it getting air bound but you may end up with problems caused by the crank whipping up the oil in a froth also. If you are going to corner enthusiastically and see any loss of oil pressure get a good sump baffle system installed and potentially move the pick up to the centre of the sump as part of that modification.

cheers
Rohan

[Billmack]

I fired up another newly assembled elan engine yesterday after a lengthy time of spinning it for oil pressure. It has renewed my opinion that these take much longer to prime than the other couple hundred British car engines I have rebuilt. (Mostly mg/ triumph /healey/ jaguar). We built a baffle system we think is better than the previous attempt by someone else on this engine. Has plenty of oil pressure when fired and sounds good. I remain convinced that something can be done with the pump to resolve the trapped air that gets there in right turns. I believe the problem is doubtless the oil sloshing around in the pan but almost as important is the pumps failure to re prime itself. Its not clearances. I measured and even decreased the end float to about .0015. There is a fundamental problem with these pumps. Had similar trouble with a hotted up 1600 crossflow. New high volume pump similarly prepared there.Is there a different style pump sold anywhere?
Rant completed. Please add anything you have!

[Billmack]

I'd rather solve this than make everyone run accusumps or dry sump every engine.

[Billmack]

I want to thank you Rohan for your participation in this forum. I always look forward to reading your posts no matter the topic. A quick PS to the last but one post: I built a trap with doors having only two sides and two doors(hardware store hinges). Left pickup tube in original place I've had a very hard time finding extra pickup tubes and associated hardware. Hoping for success with this. Also have a story for later with using Deves rings on the Italian asso brand pistons (was not successful) this time using rings from QED who originated that project according to what I've read. Hoping for success this time. Engine ran great previously just acted like no oil rings in there.

[promotor]

I fired up another newly assembled elan engine yesterday after a lengthy time of spinning it for oil pressure. It has renewed my opinion that these take much longer to prime than the other couple hundred British car engines I have rebuilt. (Mostly mg/ triumph /healey/ jaguar). We built a baffle system we think is better than the previous attempt by someone else on this engine. Has plenty of oil pressure when fired and sounds good. I remain convinced that something can be done with the pump to resolve the trapped air that gets there in right turns. I believe the problem is doubtless the oil sloshing around in the pan but almost as important is the pumps failure to re prime itself. Its not clearances. I measured and even decreased the end float to about .0015. There is a fundamental problem with these pumps. Had similar trouble with a hotted up 1600 crossflow. New high volume pump similarly prepared there.Is there a different style pump sold anywhere?
Rant completed. Please add anything you have!

Grease in the rotors ALWAYS solves the oil priming problem for me.

[2cams70]

Back to ChriS7ven's bearing issue:

Were you actually cornering at high speed when the bearing issue happened or were you just driving normally??

Regarding Billmacks issue:

If everything is correct the standard oil pump is perfectly fine and never ever has any problem self priming. You don't need rotors packed with grease. You don't need rotors packed with Vaseline. All you need is good old plain engine oil coating the rotors just as Ford originally intended. That's the only substance the oil pump has on the rotors during normal engine use and therefore there's no good reason why you should need anything but engine oil on the rotors even on first startup of an engine after a rebuild. Make sure you always pre fill the filter with oil before fitment though. If you don't there will be some delay in getting oil pressure whilst the pump is filling the filter with oil for the first time.

The usual problem causing poor pump self priming is an air leak somewhere along the intake tube or the intake pipe opening being too close to the bottom of the pan. If the pump isn't self priming correctly it is a sign that something is wrong and you need to investigate further rather than just slopping grease on the rotors. With the press in type oil pickup make sure the tube is a tight fit in the block. It's very common for the interference fit to be lost after a few remove and replace cycles. I use some Loctite 641 low strength retaining compound here. It seals any potential air leaks whist still enabling removal.

With the screw in type pickup you need to check that the sealing olive is present and in good condition (where it's required) and that the pipe flare has no nicks or other damage.

[ChriS7ven]

It is true that I was almost home and for the first time I was riding a little bit faster and the small roads in my region are very twisty.

But since I bought it, I have driven the Lotus very little and don't know it well, so I was riding with a lot of reserve.
I still remember thinking to myself that everything was fine, that the car was very pleasant and that I could begin to imagine a family trip over a longer distance...

With this story of the right turn I don't know if I will regain my confidence?

[promotor]

There is something in the design of the oil system in pre-crossflows, crossflows and Lotus Twincams that causes issues with picking up oil with a newly fitted oil-pump.
I never fit a cracked, damaged or poor fitting oil pickup pipe as they are checked for size and if not correct fitting the end that goes into the block is slightly increased in size by passing a press piece through it to make sure it is an interference fit into the block. They are also always fitted with a light coating of Hylomar between tube outer and block drilling.
Once an engine has run there is NEVER an issue with getting oil pressure in an engine that I have had to use grease in to get initial oil pressure (ie the grease has long gone from the rotors at this point) - that tells me everything I need to know about the general health of the oil system and its ability to pull in oil. It happens time and time again on crossflows, pre crossflows & Lotus Twincams with all the correct clearances, tolerances, starter speeds etc.
I am EXTREMELY fussy about the correct clearances of crank main bearings and big ends and also the sizes of the main bearing bores and big-end bores without bearings installed plus the sizes of cam bearing and jackshaft bearing tunnels. There is nothing that is left to chance on an engine when I build one and I still see that issue.

The problem even presents itself with a used engine and a known good old oil pump that has been getting oil pressure on start-up perfectly well until you take the oil pump off for an oil change, clean it, fill it with oil, prime it and low and behold, no oil pressure. I've seen it with new in-spec oil pumps too. As soon as I add grease to an already primed oil pump it gets oil pressure almost straight away.

Of course, if you wish to just start the engine the oil pressure usually comes up once the engine is running but I prefer to have oil pressure when turning the engine on the starter motor rather than finding out later. I prefer to know before the engine is fully running that I've got near full pressure just by the starter speed alone.
Grease in the rotors is not going to cause any issue particularly if you use the exact same assembly grease that is used in the bearings and moving parts that you should be using when building an engine.
I've never found that using grease is hiding something about an engine's health in the pre crossflow and crossflow based engines - good oil pressure at idle and higher revs with warm oil on a standard pressure/standard capacity oil pump tells you there's no issue.

Petroleum Jelly in oil pump rotors has been recommended by car manufacturer's themselves in their own workshop manuals as a means of helping oil pumps (usually those not submerged in oil in the the oil sump itself, the same as a Lotus Twincam) to prime efficiently and quickly.

To the OP - these engines are usually robust so you shouldn't worry about the same issue happening again just because your experience has been a bad one.
That said you will need to find a competent engine builder (preferably one who knows the Twincam engine) to check over and find reasons for the problems, and then build your engine correctly. Any engine can be built to fail if there isn't care and attention used.

[HCA]

Really, do not get hung up regarding right hand turns. This applies to racing and constant hooligan driving, and not the type of driving you, I and the majority of owners here will give the car.

For a little piece of mind, especially as you have the sump off, you might think about bronzing in a simple baffle plate to hold back the oil sloshing about. I am sure any of the above 'builders' above will give you a drawing of where such baffle/s should be...

[2cams70]

Promotor - I just do as Ford would have done when they built the engine in the first place. Make sure the pump is properly primed by pouring some 20W/50 oil down the intake port of the pump and rotating it a few times by hand to distribute the oil internally. Fit the pump. Make sure the filter is full of oil before fitting it (Ford probably didn't bother with that). Whether the filter has been pre-filled with oil or not is the single factor that has the biggest effect on the time it takes to build up oil pressure (assuming no intake air leaks and rotors properly lubricated). Crank engine with ignition, spark plugs, etc. all connected until it fires up.

Waste of time going to the extent of pre-pressurising oil galleries etc. The oil volume contained in the galleries is way smaller than that in the filter and it drains off anyway whenever the engine is stopped unlike what happens with the oil in the filter (notice I keep stressing the oil in the filter because it's important!!).

Oil pressure buildup rate under these conditions is exactly the same as it would be if you just started and stopped the engine in regular use. I've never had any issues with almost instantaneous oil pressure on startup. I do of course ensure that all the engine bearings are properly lubricated during assembly. I've also always used OEM Ford pumps so I can't make any judgements in relation to pattern replacement pumps.

[promotor]

Promotor - I just do as Ford would have done when they built the engine in the first place. Make sure the pump is properly primed by pouring some 20W/50 oil down the intake port of the pump and rotating it a few times by hand to distribute the oil internally. Fit the pump. Make sure the filter is full of oil before fitting it (Ford probably didn't bother with that). Whether the filter has been pre-filled with oil or not is the single factor that has the biggest effect on the time it takes to build up oil pressure (assuming no intake air leaks and rotors properly lubricated). Crank engine with ignition, spark plugs, etc. all connected until it fires up.

Waste of time going to the extent of pre-pressurising oil galleries etc. The oil volume contained in the galleries is way smaller than that in the filter and it drains off anyway whenever the engine is stopped unlike what happens with the oil in the filter (notice I keep stressing the oil in the filter because it's important!!).

Oil pressure buildup rate under these conditions is exactly the same as it would be if you just started and stopped the engine in regular use. I've never had any issues with almost instantaneous oil pressure on startup. I do of course ensure that all the engine bearings are properly lubricated during assembly. I've also always used OEM Ford pumps so I can't make any judgements in relation to pattern replacement pumps.

My experience of building Ford pre crossflow, crossflow and Twincam engines together with my Dad's decades of experience working for a Ford main dealer (and having served his apprenticeship with Ford) in the 50's/60's/70's both here in UK and abroad is enough to tell me what is happening in respect of these pre crossflow based Ford engines and the struggle with oil pressure on start-up AFTER the oil pump has either been off the engine and re-fitted, or a new oil pump has been fitted. My Dad tells me that they would routinely do services in their workshop on the service line and would often struggle to get oil pressure in the engines (that had come in with good oil pressure) after they had fitted a new genuine Ford oil filter during an oil change. This was in fairly new cars that were coming in for routine services that were fitted with original Ford pumps not the stuff that's available now. There is clearly something going off where these engines just do not respond in all cases to simply priming the oil pump and away you go.

To note, priming the oil filter doesn't simply solve the issue on its own in nearly every engine I have seen - I always prime the oil filter and pump until it can't take any more oil. I must point out the issue of oil pressure on initial start-up is not as a result of forgetting to prime the pump (it's always primed) and the grease/Petroleum Jelly is in addition to priming with oil.

In case there is any confusion - once an engine has been run after having had its oil pump removed and then re-fitted - there is no need for me to fill the rotors with grease every time I want to go out for a blast in the car! That is not the point I'm making: oil pressure always comes up without issue after the initial start up on subsequent start-ups. It is the pumps inability to make sufficient suction on initial start up. It's quite clear there is no issue with the engines once they have been helped with grease as they start with no issue thereafter and with perfect oil pressure coming up to the correct figure quickly and staying at the correct figure when the oil is hot.

Based on my experience with this engine platform I will keep to my method, and if others struggle to get oil pressure (on initially obtaining oil pressure before running the engine, not constant no / low pressure when actually running - that is another issue) on a known good engine I will advise the same. There is a difference between a poor engine with low oil pressure due to damaged / compromised oil pickup pipe, loose bearing clearances / worn metal surfaces and a good engine that won't get oil pressure on initial start up. A bit of grease that disappears into the oil isn't going to give any issue. I don't see the reluctance to it. It's not to mask a problem - any oil pressure problem will present itself once the engine is running and up to temperature.

I would NEVER cold start a rebuilt engine or an engine that has had an oil filter or oil pump renewed / replaced without having ascertained oil pressure first by turning the engine over on the starter motor with spark plugs removed and the fuel pump / ignition wires disconnected until I see 30-40psi on the gauge (on a standard oil pump). If that's not your method then fair enough. I just don't like to rely on hope and crossing my fingers.

[2cams70]

Each to their own. All I can do is relate my experiences and explain the reasons for them. In it's design parameters the pump would not have been designed to supply oil pressure under cranking speeds. It would have been designed to supply oil pressure under running speeds. If you've properly lubricated the engine bearings during assembly you don't run risk of causing damage in the short time it takes to start an engine. It may even be riskier cranking over the engine at higher speeds for a longer time with the spark plugs removed.

[promotor]

Each to their own. All I can do is relate my experiences and explain the reasons for them. In it's design parameters the pump would not have been designed to supply oil pressure under cranking speeds. It would have been designed to supply oil pressure under running speeds. If you've properly lubricated the engine bearings during assembly you don't run risk of causing damage in the short time it takes to start an engine. It may even be riskier cranking over the engine at higher speeds for a longer time with the spark plugs removed.

Agreed - I only crank an engine over for a short period on the starter otherwise the lube etc is going to be displaced after so long, and the starter motor will get too hot quickly. That's why the grease is the best idea for me - it helps bring the oil pressure up quickly.

My other reason for getting pressure before starting the engine properly is to ascertain that the oil pressure relief valve isn't sticking open because that will truly ruin the day! Had that happen and don't want it happening again.