Big Wing Sump

[2cams70]

Boys club Rohan. You and your mates. Don't bother acknowledging or thanking me for posting all those details and photos about the big wing sump. It does take time to gather all that information, draw diagrams and to post it for benefit of others. It was only after a few of your mates started saying the same thing that you thanked them for providing the information. I made no criticism of your mates sump design. I was merely put off a little by some of his statements about the Ford big wing design

[rgh0]

Boys club Rohan. You and your mates. Don't bother acknowledging or thanking me for posting all those details and photos about the big wing sump. It does take time to gather all that information, draw diagrams and to post it for benefit of others. It was only after a few of your mates started saying the same thing that you thanked them for providing the information. I made no criticism of your mates sump design. I was merely put off a little by some of his statements about the Ford big wing design

Not sure exactly what your mean by "boys club" but it appears to be a disrespectful and personal comment aimed at individuals rather than a objective statement or personal judgement around the design of the big wing sump. Comments about alternative sump designs and their pros and cons are legitimate discussion I believe.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion whether they are a mate of mine or not. I personally take the effort to provide specific information and respect and thanked you for doing the same thing even if somehow you appear to take offense at that.

At least the discussion is helping me get to my next aim of 8000 posts hahaha


regards
Rohan

[2cams70]

Not sure exactly what your mean by "boys club" but it appears to be a disrespectful and personal comment aimed at individuals rather than a objective statement or personal judgement around the design of the big wing sump

Yes it's a comment aimed at you Rohan. Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. I spent a good 45mins to an hour gathering information and photos to share with others about my big wing sump only to have it totally ignored. You should take more care to examine information based on merit and not just on who that information comes from (i.e whether they are members or not of the Lotus "guru" club).

I'm sure you would be pi***ed off too if you could see it from my side.

[rgh0]

I consider everyone on Lotuselan.net to be part of the club of Lotus and Elan enthusiasts.

I don't think your contribution was ignored at all and the information on the sump and this discussion will be a valuable reference for many in the future.

There is always a place for objective discussion and exchange of information around the pros and cons of all aspects of Lotus Elans and twincam engines which is why this website exists.

[ceejay]

Amen to that.

[The Veg]

For what it's worth, none of this discussion is of any practical value to me (the stock sump is just fine for my needs as yet), but I've read all of it because it's interesting, as often happens with various topics here. Thanks to ALL who've contributed!

[h20hamelan]

Suspect slosh, hitting rotating bits is of concern for standard us.

For me, & only driving on winding mountain roads. I will be making the plate and swinging gates because I don’t want oil sloshing and impacting rotation, also some corners through drainage basins or switchbacks are in question.

I do appreciate all discussions.
There sure are not enough accolades for any comments on here, though some do-others don’t. Please don’t be offended either way, as people need help.

[J J DIKKE]

Good morning boys and girls, let's get started then.

First and foremost, thank you all for your input, comments and information.

ceejay's first comment on my posted subject said "I think these big wing sumps are quite ugly". My personal opinion is that ceejay is 100% correct. He goes on to say that his opinion is that they are an "ugly construction", once again my opinion is that he is 100% correct.

We all know that the big wing sump works in the way Ford intended and indeed it is a clever design, designed and built by very clever Ford engineers all those years ago, if only it's visual appearance had been better, (in my opinion). ceejay also posted photographs of his genuine twin cam sump with the bulges in the sides, that is visually superb.

The reason I wish to tackle this small amateur project is to have on one of my engines a sump that will give me extra oil capacity and probably the ability for increased oil cooling. I am unsure as to whether Ford ever produced a twin cam sump with the bulged sides that are a rear bowl fitment and thereby suitable for the Escort, if they ever did I would like one please !

And now a message if I might for 2cams70. You say in one of your postings that "personally I don't care what sump you use but I do take a little offence when the big wing sump is derided as being crap". Could I ask please why you would care what sump someone fits after all, it is their sump, their engine and indeed their car !! I am unable to find anywhere in these responses to my posting where anyone described the Escort big wing sump as "crap", it is surely a very clever design and undoubtedly it works, it simply could probably have looked better/neater in my opinion.

Thank you once again for the 45 minutes to 1 hour of your personal time and all the information contained within, I'm sure it is useful to people including myself.

If I am able to drag myself away from the important work in the gardens, my intention is to have serious play with one of my standard 1600 steel rear bowl sumps, in an attempt to achieve a finished shape that is aesthetically pleasing to myself. And now moving towards my potential end game in this exercise. If I can get my modified steel sump to look good and to my liking, I will then seek to replicate/copy what I have achieved with one large twist,
I wish to have this on an aluminium alloy sump !!!!

Finally for now then and an attempt to lighten the mood a little, 2cams70 details in one of his posts that the Escort big wing sump can be cleaned using thinners and "a good hot tanking". As I continue to say and probably by now ad nauseam, I am only a simple amateur in this engineering subject, so I wish to know the engineering meaning of the term "a good hot tanking".

A final message from myself for 2cams70, please don't get upset, stressed, offended or indeed pi**ed off when these brilliant engineers as indeed you are, provide their opinions on this site that differ from yours. It is simply a piece of metal and life is too short.

Thank you all once again.

[rgh0]

Hot tanking is what engine build workshops do to clean blocks and heads and other components. Typically it consists of a heated tank of caustic solution that the part is submerged in to soften and remove built up sludge and deposits followed by a water wash. Depending on whether they know their chemistry they may have a acid bath as well in the process to help remove rust and material not removed by the caustic solution.

cheers
Rohan

[J J DIKKE]

Rohan,
Thank you for that. I am unaware of any facility close by to me that would have the equipment to do this should I need it, however, one would have thought living in a steel town there would surely be something here.

I am considering removing and stripping the engine currently in my Escort and having it refreshed, it is a little smokey particularly on start up. What criteria would I use to decide whether or not to have this process performed on my block and head, or should I simply have it done anyway ?

Does anyone have an opinion on the use of an aluminium alloy sump on a crossflow based block/engine ?

Thank you once again.

[h20hamelan]

Another idea

https://web.archive.org/web/20110913170 ... nmods.html

Here you see the safety-wired 10-24 allen head bolts and safety wire and the cut-out for the standard oil pickup. It's a very large cutout as the wire strainer basket on the standard pickup is quite large!



Without the oil pan modifications, if one put in 4 quarts of water and tilted the pan suddenly 45 degrees (as if 1+g right turn) the water left the area of the pickup in a tiny fraction of a second. Whoosh, gone. With the oil pan mods in place, with the same motion, the water stayed in place for 6 seconds at least, covering the pickup that long. Dramatically better. I hope it's enough. Clearly not as good as a moving pickup or a dry-sump though!

[J J DIKKE]

Hello all,

Would anyone wish to offer comments, information, guidance and suggestions on this ? I had originally intended to create the wider sump shape, using one of my existing steel sumps as previously described, as my intention had been to eventually replicate whatever I make using an aluminium alloy sump.

I (hope) I have attached photos of the alloy sump and my basic modification thus far, I guess my next move would be to figure out how I now achieve the bulges on the sump bowl, this would allow increased oil capacity. I would really appreciate comments if you have them.

Thank you

[promotor]

Hello all,

Would anyone wish to offer comments, information, guidance and suggestions on this ? I had originally intended to create the wider sump shape, using one of my existing steel sumps as previously described, as my intention had been to eventually replicate whatever I make using an aluminium alloy sump.

I (hope) I have attached photos of the alloy sump and my basic modification thus far, I guess my next move would be to figure out how I now achieve the bulges on the sump bowl, this would allow increased oil capacity. I would really appreciate comments if you have them.

Thank you

Looks a nice job! Has the aluminium stayed in shape, or has it pulled the mounting flanges out of shape / flat? Not saying it looks warped, it's just a consideration for aluminium.

Is there sufficient clearance at the front of the sump to clear the steering rack / crossmember of a mk1 escort, and is there sufficient clearance in the sump for engine removal / installation? The shape in the original steel sump around the rack / crossmember is there to help in this aspect.

[bitsobrits]

Hello all,

Would anyone wish to offer comments, information, guidance and suggestions on this ? I had originally intended to create the wider sump shape, using one of my existing steel sumps as previously described, as my intention had been to eventually replicate whatever I make using an aluminium alloy sump.

I (hope) I have attached photos of the alloy sump and my basic modification thus far, I guess my next move would be to figure out how I now achieve the bulges on the sump bowl, this would allow increased oil capacity. I would really appreciate comments if you have them.

Thank you

Curious to know the source of the full length alloy sump?

[nmauduit]

I had originally intended to create the wider sump shape, using one of my existing steel sumps as previously described, as my intention had been to eventually replicate whatever I make using an aluminium alloy sump.

This sump looks nice indeed, and though I've toyed with the same idea for some time now (without the wings), never embarked that far... building from a crossflow alloy wet sump sounds like a safe start, though a bit pricey/hard to source? for comparison, QED offers an alloy dry sump that could be used as a base, a bit like the Titan one (about 450...)
Also, I'm not sure about the actual capacity requirements vs. ground clearance.

fwiw I was just browsing from the interest sparked by these photos, I've come across a similar offer from a crossflow angle (no affiliation, and no idea of the price)
https://iveyengines.com/parts/

Ivey crossflow winged alloy sump

I'm currently working on a steel based sump improvement, still debating between a moving pickup and gated baffles, and some experimenting will be required to finalize (esp. for consideration of the possible failures specific of each version).