A problem getting the engine to simply turn over.

[worzel]

Hi

Thanks again for the extra feedback- I think I'll try the trick of starting without the ignition connected but I'll have to wait a few days to again replicate the conditions. I've noticed previously that for some odd reason if I use the car one day it starts easily the following day- leave for a couple of days and it's slow turning over and I have had a good auto electrician test for any drainage so that's not the root of the problem.

I imagine trying to start with the plugs loosened would undoubtedly work (produce a lot of hissing too) but I'm not sure what that would reveal.

I'll be back!

Regards and thanks to all

John

PS want to hear a sad story- I used to have a very nice 89 Excel from 2000 to 2011. Low miles, few owners, unaltered from std spec, perfect interior apart from carpets and headlining. Made quite a few useful mods to it over the years- better quality headlining/carpets, upgraded the cooling, fitted a custom ss exhaust, did a partial repaint etc to end up with a really nice example (actually one of the best of the LC versions and not just my opinion).

Has since passed thru a succession of owners and has recently had the front right corner taken off resulting in a Cat C write-off. Now I know you shouldn't judge by first appearances etc but judging by the wording/spelling/general tone of the ad placed by the person who crashed it he seems a bit ******** (you can fill in the details yourself). Such a pity after all of the work that went into it.

John

[worzel]

Hi all

Just an update plus a question.

Since last post have tried a few ideas-

Replaced the battery to solenoid cable with new and both ends are again soldered as per the one removed.

Replaced the solenoid to starter cable with new- again end terminals soldered

Substituted a new starter for mine

Result- still the same ie slow to turn over after leaving the car standing for around 4 days or so.

I'm 100% confident that every item pertaining to the starting circuit is in top order so- as starting is not a problem if I charge the (Varta- 6 months old) battery and let the battery adopt whatever the ambient temperature is (so I'm not using a warmed up battery) I'm beginning to think I might need something with a bit more reserve.

Therefore can other owners tell me which battery they use, its spec and how it differs from the std item plus (and I'm not sure on this point so bear with me) if a significantly greater capacity battery is used does it also require a higher output alternator to complement it? My car uses a 18ACR alternator.

Many thanks for the help

John

[cliveyboy]

John
Sounds like the issue I had with my Sprint.
Rebuilt standard engine just run in.
It was firing up OK and I left it for a few weeks and came to fire it up with no success.
The battery was fairly new and so I charged it up and she fired up OK.
But she started to get more reluctant and turning over slower and slower.
I got to a point where I was using the freshly charged battery but the engine would turn over very slowly or appear to jam etc.
I suspected starter motor, main earth in the boot etc etc
In the end I bought a new battery and fitted it. The engine spun over beautifully.
I notice you say the battery is fairly new and taking charge but sometimes batteries deteriorate and although they appear to be charged up have lost that "grunt" needed to turn over the engine.
Borrow a battery off another car and try that.
Clive

[AnthonyBelcher]

Hi John

I'm new to Lotus cars having only had my elan for 3 weeks and not had cause to take a spanner to it yet. I use the proviso 'If it ain't bust don't fix it'. So I don't know how difficult it would be or you may have tried to take a direct feed from the battery using a set of jump leads to the starter motor. To see what happens. This operation would bypass all solenoids relays faulty wiring etc and confirm that the starter and battery are ok or whether the problem lies elsewhere. I have done this successfully on my vintage cars but starters and things are far more accessible on the very old cars.
Good luck
Regards Anthony

[JJDraper]

I thought I might as well put my tuppence in as its a slow day! When my +2 had a head rebuild earlier this year, I put it all back together and it ran pretty well - but - the engine had become quite slow to turn over.

It seemed to have difficulty with two cylinders i.e in some starts it would struggle to turn the engine over, until the next cylinder came up to compression, then it would speed up for the next two cycles then slow down. Wuh, wuh, wa-wa, Wuh, Wuh until it caught. It had never done this before in my ten year's ownership, but I put it down to good compression due to the head rebuild (you've always got to have a theory).

I lived with it for a couple of months until I reset the valve clearances. Most were tight, and after getting them all on spec (long story see earlier thread) the engine was running well again. However, I noticed that the Wuh, wuh, wa-wa Wuh, wuh had been replaced with a wa-wa-wa-wa, and much faster turnover. Nothing else touched and the engine was running smoooothly.

Don't know why, but there it is.

Jeremy

[Chancer]

Sorry to be repetitive and I wont repeat the message again but have you tried cranking without ignition yet?

[twincamman]

Try the Zen way ----Accept the fact your starter is A F U and spend a buck or a pound ---

[Robbie693]

Hi John,

If you do decide to try a new battery, I fitted one of these last year: http://www.tayna.co.uk/015-Numax-Car-Battery-P977.html

It's a slightly higher Ah than standard fit for a Plus 2 (42Ah vs 38Ah) but I definitely noticed the difference in cranking speed and duration. A few have mentioned the Odyssey PC680 as being a good performer too but I have no experience of these.

This is for a Plus 2 of course and I don't know if the Elan battery differs...

Regards

Robbie

[types26/36]

I have an Odyssey 680 in my S2 and I am not impressed with it, (I fitted it when I was having the same problems as you but it did not help).....see my earlier post although my suggestion of a new main battery wire appears not to have solved your problem.
That aside I fitted a 45 amp hr battery to my Sprint although I do not have starting problems with it but wanted more cranking power, it is larger and I had to make a new bracket as it does not have the base clamping arrangement of the original.
It is a close fit but it does give you a few more useful amps to play with, it has the same output and dimensions as this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bosch-S4-Car- ... 8623603%26

[AHM]

It sounds like your battery is u/s.

I have the cheapest standard battery that money can buy and it works fine.

If it will start your car on day 1 and not on day 4 it isn,t likely to be anything else - I have one just the same in another car - stick it on charge before you use it and off you go.

[worzel]

Hi- again

Thanks for the input- very useful.

For Chancer- I've not tried your suggestion yet- but I definitely will this weekend. I'm trying to replicate conditions so it means leaving the car untouched for around 4 days each time before I attempt to restart it hence the delay in applying your suggestion.

Re larger reserve batteries- here I'll have to show my ignorance- some questions-

1) Does a "larger" battery require an alternator with greater output than a 18ACR can supply. I'm running one of these rather than the usual 17ACR but am not sure if output differs between the two or even if that matters

2)If a higher output alternator is actually needed which is preferred?

3)Does any wiring require upgrading to heavier duty to cope with the higher output?

Thinking about the problem logically (I hope) it does make some sense to suspect the battery isn't man enough even though it's been tested last week and found to be fine (it's a 6 month old Varta so not a low quality make). Since it spins the engine over very quickly if I charge it for a day or so it does seem to indicate that even if in good condition that it might not have enough reserve. Incidentally, before some ask - after charging I leave it on the car for a couple of hours to let it assume ambient temperature so as not to use it in a warmed up state as I imagine this itself might cloud the true picture.



Regards

John

[types26/36]

Re larger reserve batteries- here I'll have to show my ignorance- some questions-
1) Does a "larger" battery require an alternator with greater output than a 18ACR can supply. I'm running one of these rather than the usual 17ACR but am not sure if output differs between the two or even if that matters
2)If a higher output alternator is actually needed which is preferred?
3)Does any wiring require upgrading to heavier duty to cope with the higher output?
John

I dont even know what output my S2 & Sprint alternators are, I did not even upgrade the wiring when fitting the alternators, just used the original wiring leaving out the control box.
I doubt it would need a higher output alternator for the larger capacity battery.

[ericbushby]

Hello Worzel
You should be OK with the alternator.
A higher output one will charge a battery quicker, but once charged up you cannot put more into it than the electrical equipment has recently taken out. (disregarding efficiency issues in this case)
The battery only stores a charge, but a larger one will be rated at a higher maximum current for starting. Components and connections inside the battery will be larger thus reducing the internal resistance and giving less internal volt drop on heavy loads. It will also crank the engine for longer before losing charge.
Watching and waiting to see how you go on.
Eric in Burnley
1967 S3SE DHC. ( Hey the suns come out. I`m off!)

[AHM]

1) Does a "larger" battery require an alternator with greater output than a 18ACR can supply. I'm running one of these rather than the usual 17ACR but am not sure if output differs between the two or even if that matters

A standard 17 ACR gives about 35 Amps max and an 18 ACR gives about 45 Amps max.... and a dynamo about 20 Amps -

Batteries are rated on cranking Amps and capacity (Ah) - the orientation and shape of the terminals can also differ. If you have the original flat terminals there isn't much choice and anyway you are limited by space.

Did you try the jump leads as suggested by another poster?

If your battery is only 6 months old take it back.

[billwill]

The one thing that has not been mentioned yet is your oil.

After it has cooled down for 4 days it will be thicker and offer more resistance to the starter motor.

But as with the others above, in my opinion, your battery is not up to scratch.
Note that the only viable relevant test would be with a high discharge tester that takes about the same current as your starter motor.