Odd starting issues

[fatboyoz]

Gary,
When you get your new Denso unit (and you won't regret it), just make sure you do a depth check (sharp end of a vernier caliper should do it) to check the clearances that you will be supplied with the unit. Shouldn't be a problem if you get one specifically for the Elan from a reputable supplier. Mine was supposed to be specific, turned out to be generic and required a longer pinion to achieve the correct pinion engagement.
Colin.

Rohan pegged it in the first reply. The Lucas starter need a "float test in the deepest part of the Pacific ocean. Hurl that piece of crap starter and get on with a modern nippon-denso unit. Christ, not worth even talking about this subject. Rebuilt junk is still JUNK. Any one not think I have expressed myself on this subject email me and we will talk about it.

Gary

[summerinmaine]

Rohan pegged it in the first reply. The Lucas starter need a "float test in the deepest part of the Pacific ocean. Hurl that piece of crap starter and get on with a modern nippon-denso unit. Christ, not worth even talking about this subject. Rebuilt junk is still JUNK. Any one not think I have expressed myself on this subject email me and we will talk about it.

Gary

I second this. Had my ND starter spinning for the first time yesterday, and it worked great!

The Lucas unit is a piece of crap. Uhhh . . . that is . . . a genuine artifact of the motoring times. Anyone want to buy mine to complete their resto and maintain originality? It will be unique, one-of-a-kind, and rare someday.

[Elanintheforest]

So guys, something goes wrong with a 40 year old bit of electrical kit and it's crap, eh? I'm sure you could level the same criticism at the twincam engine....the modern equvalent is so much better....or at least you can ignore it a bit longer.

I really wonder why some of you guys bother with old cars. Yes they need more work, and yes the starter does need overhauling at least once every 20 years or so, but if done properly it works just fine....well it does in my cars, standard and modified.

Perhaps if you fixed the problems and not the symptoms you may get something a bit more reliable?

Mark

[garyeanderson]

So guys, something goes wrong with a 40 year old bit of electrical kit and it's crap, eh? I'm sure you could level the same criticism at the twincam engine....the modern equvalent is so much better....or at least you can ignore it a bit longer.

I really wonder why some of you guys bother with old cars. Yes they need more work, and yes the starter does need overhauling at least once every 20 years or so, but if done properly it works just fine....well it does in my cars, standard and modified.

Perhaps if you fixed the problems and not the symptoms you may get something a bit more reliable?

Mark

Hi Mark

If you want to have problems and work on your Elan then please use the Lucas starter. I think you pointed to one of the issues in that they are 40 years old (or getting on 50 or more? for the design). Stuff wares out and a bushing and brushes don't make them "new". After 4 months of sitting and my Elan started up, old gas and engine at 35 degrees.

free-parking-f19/4597-started-right-after-sitting-since-october-12th-t22108.html

Not everyone drives there Elan everyday, an Elan that is driven everyday has less problems than one that sits for periods of time and then called to perform. That?s just the way things work out. If your car never sits inactive then they start nicely with a ? turn of the crankshaft. Most Lucas starters will even do that. Folks on this forum seem to run into the same problems Over and Over and Over. Starters are one that doesn?t have to be one of them. Fuel in the carbs is another issue and when it's not there until 10 or 15 engine turns and maybe that marginal starter and the not so quite up to spec battery leaves one asking the questions one sees all so often here. So I use an electric fuel pump. One of the best ever suggestion was from Anna on using a bulb outboard motor primer. If you want to chastise me for not being original, I am well over that. There are folks here that don't have 35 or more years of playing with Elans that just want to drive, not work on them. Fuel in the carbs and a starter that cranks the engine at 100 rpm when you turn the key gets you an Elan that starts, then you can get a drive in and go looking for real problems that need to be addressed before they rear there head. BUT first you got to get them started. None of my Elans are the way they left Cheshunt or Norwich, I don't have a problem with that. If the next owner want the original starter and fuel pumps, they are around and they are more than welcome to have them, I just won't be installing them.

Gary

P.S. ? and yes I think Lucas starters are crap if you missed it!

[Elanintheforest]

I'm not criticising anybody for a lack of originality, rather their blatent dismisal of something that does the job perfectly well when serviced properly.

Many critcise the original starter for chewing up the ring gear...now that is crap! They don't chew up the ring gear, and the ring gear doesn't wreck the bendix. It's the ignorant owner who doesn't know that two bolts have to be tightened up when the car is serviced to prevent the starter from coming loose.

My S3 had a new starter and ring gear when I first had the car....36 years ago. After 60k miles, it still works fine and is nice and quite. Sometimes the car sits for a year or more without being touched, sometimes a couple of weeks, but I top up the carbs before starting it if it's stood for a while, a process that takes a few seconds as I'm looking under the bonnet anyway....so the starter isn't often called on the pump petrol up into an empty sytem....but it does occasionally, with no problems.

The BDA uses the same original starter, but with a 10.5 : 1 compression...again, 85 k miles and no problems.

The S4 uses the same starter, but has to crank to get the fuel up....must find out how to top up Strombergs! No problems with that either.

So, three twincams, all longterm use on the same starter, often left for weeks and more, and I don't have, and never have had any problems in 35 years and many tens of thousands of miles.

We are obviously doing something very different, or have a different understanding of what is crap.

Mark

[ardee_selby]

I agree with the well expressed comments from Mark, wrt sorting the problems and not the symptoms (that manifest themselves in starters being abused, on top of them receiving little or no maintenance)

I learnt the value of this when, as an impoverished apprentice, I had to go without a starter motor of ANY description. Months of single-handedly pushing & jumping in, or maybe asking a passer-by for help, makes you keep your ignition & fuel systems on their toes.

I see that Jim has opted for the ND starter, but sadly, it appears even that hasn't helped him get it fired up yet. Good luck Jim.

But back to John's request for help. Potential earthing faults? Shouldn't they be ruled out, whatever flavour of starter is fitted? And certainly before recommending spending ???? unnecessarily.

John (Worzel) how's it going?

Cheers - rd

[garyeanderson]

Hi Mark

I am ignorant, stubborn, and stupid too. I have had issues early on with them and ended up walking home with temperatures around 0 degrees F. maybe less.
I was 30 miles from home with my Cortina Estate with the Twin Cam and Ultra close box. This was my first week at work for Digital Equipment and after getting out of work at midnight the Cortina won't start and everyone had left. I ended up hitchhiking/walking home from Woburn to Scituate through Boston, I probably walked 10 or 12 miles and good folks and police took pity on me got me the rest of the way. This was the last week in February 1980. We have 100 F degree temperature swings summer to winter here. The Lucas starter will not do the job. We all live in different environments and because something works for you doesn't mean it will work for me, the opposite is true I am sure. A near death experience changes your opinion on some things. That 4 hour trip gave this one legged gimp in near zero temps time to think and change how I view things. There are other issues as you say, I have had the ratchets out with the 6 inch extension followed by the 12 inch extension and a 9/16 socket to get access to the top bolt and then slide under to tighten the bottom bolt with a 9/16 box. There are also 8 connection points where you can loose continuity, 2 on the Battery, chassis to battery cable, chassis to engine ground, engine ground to engine, starter motor connection, two sides of the solenoid, any one of them can burn you. If you have a shut off/kill switch add 2 more. I know the drill, I just don't think you should need to do it. So you aren't going to change my view and I won't change yours. Please do and promote what you believe, I do. Anyway, that's not where I am going with this. Someone may learn from our discussion, you know the issues, lots of folks apparently don't.

Gary

rd

I stop at Keith Gustafson's and get my starters from him as he's local to me. It may not be for you or anyone that lives in the U.K. but maybe someone may want to know. My view may not be well expressed as I am only a half Brit, two generations removed so I am a bit less educated than others around here.

http://www.gustafsonmachine.com/
http://www.gustafsonmachine.com/lotus.html

GUSTAFSON SPECIALTY PRODUCTS LLC
44 Whittemore St
Gloucester, Ma
01930
ph 978-281-2012
fax 978-281-2116



Available from

Ray at RD Enterprises
Jeff at JAE
Dave at Dave Bean
And BritishStarters.com

Ray has it listed on his web site
http://rdent.com/

"Gear-reduction design provides lots of starting power

Based on a top quality rebuilt Japanese starter

Increased cranking speed for faster starting

Will not "pop out" like original Lucas starters

Solves starter problems on any Elan

Ideal for both road and race applications

Easy installation - No special tools required

One year warranty

Fits all Elan S1, S2, S3, S4 and Sprint

Works with either positive or negative ground

Ref. 26R-M-6012HP $175.00"

[summerinmaine]

I'm not criticising anybody for a lack of originality, rather their blatent dismisal of something that does the job perfectly well when serviced properly.

Many critcise the original starter for chewing up the ring gear...now that is crap! They don't chew up the ring gear, and the ring gear doesn't wreck the bendix. It's the ignorant owner who doesn't know that two bolts have to be tightened up when the car is serviced to prevent the starter from coming loose.

Mark

Mark,

My S2 had the Lucas starter on an engine rebuilt by a pro (AVO) less than 5K miles before I bought it. The starter was fastened tighter than a tick on a coon hound, and presumably the ring gear was fresh at the rebuild (or at least in good shape as an Alu flywheel was fitted at the same time). I was never very happy with the starter kicking out all the time, so I bought a starter from JAE and finally got around to fitting it (probably only put another 5K on the engine). When I pulled things apart the back-side of the ring gear teeth were chewed up like Mail Pouch!

So I'm going to enjoy my new starter (it engages on the opposite side of the ring gear) as it works like a charm. You're entitled to your own opinion of course, so go with what makes you happy. But the Lucas starter's day (if it ever had one) has come and gone.

[summerinmaine]

I stop at Keith Gustafson's and get my starters from him as he's local to me. It may not be for you or anyone that lives in the U.K. but maybe someone may want to know. My view may not be well expressed as I am only a half Brit, two generations removed so I am a bit less educated than others around here.

http://www.gustafsonmachine.com/
http://www.gustafsonmachine.com/lotus.html

GUSTAFSON SPECIALTY PRODUCTS LLC
44 Whittemore St
Gloucester, Ma
01930
ph 978-281-2012
fax 978-281-2116

Looks exactly like the one I got from JAE, and works like a charm! I didn't even need to clock it! Color me happy!!!

[rgh0]

The standard Lucas starter has 3 problems versus a modern unit - none that make it an insurmountable problem to use but in combination they mean for most people its more trouble than its worth to keep using them.

1. High current draw -that stresses the battery and supply lines and earth return to the limit and requires them to be in very good condition with not much room for a slightly dodgy connection anywhere.
2. Low torque output - that means any small reduction due to supply problems from the stressed supply lines or internaly to the motor itself means it struggles especially on a cold and dry engine not run for a while
3. A bendix engagement - that can jam in or spit out if not used with care and sympathy or if the motor is not starting well or the starter not working well due to 1 and 2 above and it does cause wear on the flywheel over time due to the under power engagement inherent in a bendix arrangement.

if you dont get it all perfect then you can have problems. I ran with standard starters for around 15 years without much issue apart from the odd jamming of the bendix in the flywheel on the plus 2 due to the flexibility of the alloy bell housing case. I did put a heavier duty feed cable from the battery which probably help with long term reliability on the Elan with its 12:1 comp ratio motors.

I normally dont run away from a reliability challenge with my Lotus but about 15 years ago the guy who used to do the rebuild on my starters retired and I could not find anyone who would do a decent job of rebuilds when the need came next. I guess hunting around for someone who could restore them to original in terms of torque and current draw would be possible but in the end I concluded life was to short and went to a newer style preengage starter.

I congratulate anyone who continues to achieve relaibility out of the original starters

I had the same problem on our XJ6 jag recently and two starter rebuilds and chasing down the incredibly complex cable system between starter and battery could still not get the car to start easily in winter after sitting for a couple of days. My wife was not impressed with my maintenance skills as it was her everyday car and thus a good decision was made to move to a modern replacement that cost less than the two unsuccessful rebuilds of the orginal starter
regards
Rohan

[worzel]

Hi to everybody who's replied.

I seem to have stirred up a debate!

Those who've followed my previous postings will probably know I'm definitely not a purist so I'm not against alterations per se. I've no doubt the pre-engaged starters are probably technically superior to the original item. On the other hand the only period in 33 years of owning this car when starting was an "issue" was when I unknowingly fitted a starter with the incorrect number of teeth (okay I should have checked first but it was an exchange unit from a major electrical supplier).

In principle if something works better than the original I'll fit it- if the original is giving trouble and I either don't think it's worth fixing or the original was flawed in design. As for starter motors the Lucas design served pretty well a fair number of cars in its time but time has moved on so if a more modern alternative is available and doesn't require me to alter major components I'd probably opt for it.

Regards

John

[types26/36]

John, I have not read the whole of the thread so sorry if you have done this or it is a repeat of other posts but here are some test which can be carried out.

[garyeanderson]

I think I found a Lucas starter that I like and has passed all of my QC tests.Good price too.



Gary

[types26/36]

Now if everybody with a Lucas starter did that it will become an environmental issue on par with BP....pollution of the oceans.
(we have already had the asbestos debate)

[ivor badger]

Various points and in this I am discussing the Lucas starter of the Elan. OK, the world has moved on and there are better starter motors than the lucas original. It was afterall in use from the 1950s at least and that is one that fits the Elan. It comes in various guises with different levels of internals. I have a friend rebuilding a Cooper S to works spec and they used the same starter motor but with heavier windings for use on a tractor. Talking to an electrical chap at the MG festival, the internal spec is signified by the suffix letter. The basic Lucas starter motor was made in the millions and used by every British manufacturer in everything from Minis to vans including the Bedford CF whose block was used for the Lotus lV220 engine.

Now for some reason Lucas electricals do not like living in the United States. Discussing this with people in Texas I put it down to the heat, but I see owners from more Northern states are also complaining. So possibly not just heat. possibly corrosion in transit of the car? Poor rebuilds? Don't worry there are people in the UK couldn't rebuild them either, but bodged rebuils are not unusual. I have one friend who threw a starter motor through the glass front door of an supposed auto electrician, yes it was closed at the time. It was French btw and it was the 3rd one that didn't work and 1.5 hours to change each time.

So it was probably no worse than anything else in its day, but all Lucas electricals dislike living in the USA. I believe dynamos are actually more short lived.