Loss of Oil Pressure on Right Turns

[freddy22112211]

The amazing thing is that Lotus never fixed it over the ten (?) years, guess the Lotus engineers only ever drove slowly (ha, ha). Exactly like Windows I guess.
Gordon

[Galwaylotus]

. . . or only turned left - NASCAR or Indy anyone?

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

The amazing thing is that Lotus never fixed it over the ten (?) years, guess the Lotus engineers only ever drove slowly (ha, ha). Exactly like Windows I guess.
Gordon

Or just like the lack of vital development for the brilliant Rover designed K Series engines.
"Job's done, sod it" = British Automobile Industry (RIP!)

John

[reynard]

There is another sump/pickup system that really works well, even in long, long sweepers at racing speeds. Dave Bean Engineering produced (still produces) a swinging oil pickup and a baffled pan that allows the pickup to swing, driven by cornering forces, into the correct side of the pan, assuring that the pickup is always where the oil is. It works perfectly, and still keeps the appearance of a stock pan.

I have used these for years on racing Elans and on my Plus 2s and can attest that they function as well as a dry sump and look stock. I have no connection to the Bean Company other than constantly sending them piles of money for parts.

A new system would be roughly $1,400 US. I have a used, spare system from my racing Elan. If anyone is interested just send me a note or make a serious offer or I will trade it for Plus 2 Knock-off (on) mag/alum wheels. I have inserted images that should make it easy to see how it works. Hope this helps.

Andy Anderson, Fort Worth, TX.

ALSO: I am still trying to find a two row Twincam/X-flow crank pulley to fit an A/C system to my Plus2.

elan sump pickup.jpg (13.45 KiB) Viewed 1906 times

[ceejay]

Andy.

Crikey.... this sounds a bit steep for some simple sheet metal
work done on an old TC sump, a fabricated swinger pick-up & base,
a short length of rubber hose, heavy mounting bracket, and a couple
of extra long, ordinary looking HT mains bolts.

DB makes some nice stuff, and I have no doubt that the swinger "works",
but the Twin Cam oil surge problem can be cured for a fraction of the
$1400.00US cost... if you have the metalworking skills, and you are
prepared to do the work your self.

Col.
Pure Aussie Ingenuity:
http://www.elantrikbits.com/baffle.html

[reynard]

You are absolutely right. Almost any racing part that is in a catalog for Lotus parts seems to be priced as if it was in Lire by mistake. But if you are making stuff for only a few hundred buyers, it sometimes comes down to what you have to charge, not the cost of the materials. I am stunned by the cost of some Lotus parts, but at the same time can't blame Dave Bean or anyone else for wanting to make a profit and stay in business.

That said: I also agree that it might be possible to design and build an alternate. The pan mods would be fairly cheap. Used steel pans run of $100-$200 on ebay, but I have seen them cheaper.I can photo the baffles for you to match. The swinging pickup would be a bit harder as there is a seal at the point where the pickup mates with the mount/suction hose. A swivel AN style fitting might substitute for the seal, and a weighted (to induce the pull of cent. force) oil pickup hose might work as a substitute for the pickup. You would have to fabricate a way to hold the pickup system in place, but the design theory has been proven by the Bean system. I included a closer photo of the pickup.

Or, you can buy my spare system for $500 and dissect it at your leisure.

Most importantly, it is a real soultion to the problem that looks stock and is legal in all of the racing groups. If the look of the system isn't important, I have used Accusumps (positive pressure) systems with standard pump/pan setups, with almost as consistent a result in all but long long sweepers.

For a street car a baffled sump may be enough, so don't get your checkbook out yet. There are a lot of great designs out there that you can do yourself.

As always, the information in this forum, and in the archives, is a real brain trust for everyone with an Elan. I can not imagine how I did without it in the dark ages. Thanks

[neilsjuke]

It's a good job that every one has not got ebooks for information they give on here
Neil

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

You are absolutely right. Almost any racing part that is in a catalog for Lotus parts seems to be priced as if it was in Lire by mistake. But if you are making stuff for only a few hundred buyers, it sometimes comes down to what you have to charge, not the cost of the materials. I am stunned by the cost of some Lotus parts, but at the same time can't blame Dave Bean or anyone else for wanting to make a profit and stay in business.

That said: I also agree that it might be possible to design and build an alternate. The pan mods would be fairly cheap. Used steel pans run of $100-$200 on ebay, but I have seen them cheaper.I can photo the baffles for you to match. The swinging pickup would be a bit harder as there is a seal at the point where the pickup mates with the mount/suction hose. A swivel AN style fitting might substitute for the seal, and a weighted (to induce the pull of cent. force) oil pickup hose might work as a substitute for the pickup. You would have to fabricate a way to hold the pickup system in place, but the design theory has been proven by the Bean system. I included a closer photo of the pickup.

Or, you can buy my spare system for $500 and dissect it at your leisure.

Most importantly, it is a real soultion to the problem that looks stock and is legal in all of the racing groups. If the look of the system isn't important, I have used Accusumps (positive pressure) systems with standard pump/pan setups, with almost as consistent a result in all but long long sweepers.

For a street car a baffled sump may be enough, so don't get your checkbook out yet. There are a lot of great designs out there that you can do yourself.

As always, the information in this forum, and in the archives, is a real brain trust for everyone with an Elan. I can not imagine how I did without it in the dark ages. Thanks

Swinging suction Pipes have been around for a long time in Aircraft.
The design pictured here has flaws which reduce the effectiveness of the basic concept.
The intake is on the end of the swinging portion, which is fair enough but it would be better placed as far out as possible on the bottom rather than on the end.
This would place the intake lower into the oil & further reduce the possibility of any gases being sucked rather than oil.
The Sieve cross sectional area appears to be very small which could compromise the performance of the Pump.
A re-design in these areas would be a simple improvement.
e.g. A much larger Sieve could be sandwiched inside the whole length of the swinging arm before capping off the end.

Just a couple of thoughts
John

[spanner]

Yup, Flop-tubes and more......

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/a ... petube.php

http://musclebiplane.org/htmlfile/invert.php

Jim

[oldelanman]

Yup, Flop-tubes and more......

And I though this was a medical condition associated with the onset of old age

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Yup, Flop-tubes and more......

And I though this was a medical condition associated with the onset of old age

Try not to dwell on it Roger, it'll make you depressed
John

[ceejay]

Points taken. I am quite happy to stay with the simple gated/baffled sump
arrangement to prevent oil surge, the design is absolutely fail safe,
the only moving parts are the hinged gate valves which will never wear out,
or become dislodged if constructed as per plans.

I have seen many attempts by various people to make baffle sumps for
the twin cam, ford escort etc, etc.... but none come even close to the
system that Rohan & I use in our elans... A lot of ebooks have been purchased
and downloaded from our web site http://www.elantrikbits.com/baffle.html
so I dare say that there will be many twink owners working away quietly
in their workshops building/installing anti oil surge gated baffles.
Col.

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Points taken. I am quite happy to stay with the simple gated/baffled sump
arrangement to prevent oil surge, the design is absolutely fail safe,
the only moving parts are the hinged gate valves which will never wear out,
or become dislodged if constructed as per plans.

I have seen many attempts by various people to make baffle sumps for
the twin cam, ford escort etc, etc.... but none come even close to the
system that Rohan & I use in our elans... A lot of ebooks have been purchased
and downloaded from our web site http://www.elantrikbits.com/baffle.html
so I dare say that there will be many twink owners working away quietly
in their workshops building/installing anti oil surge gated baffles.
Col.

I agree entirely, a well baffled Sump will greatly improve the Lubrication System under extreme conditions.
In more modern Engines the Oil is required to fulfill roles other than Cooling & Lubrication.
Devices such as Hydraulic Lash adjusters & Variable Camshaft Timing need to be be fed with Gas free Oil under all conditions.
In order to achieve this special attention must be paid to the Oil Pan + Baffling & Oil Pick up Pipe configuration.
With my previous Employer I did the development work on such Parts initially on a tilting Engine test Bed & finally in the Car on Handling Courses & Race Tracks such as the N?rburgring.
A few years ago our most potent small Saloon needed a Double skinned (Sump in a Sump) Oil pan & an additional Oil Pump to to pump oil into the vicinity of the suction pipe of the main Oil pump in order to maintain a flow of non aerated Oil.
(Note:- None of my doing)
With a bit of careful thought & the help of our Fabrication Workshop I was able to put suitable Sheet Aluminium Baffles into a standard Production Oil Pan & achieved comparable if not slightly better results than that of the twin Pump System.
Alas all too late; production had started & all development & tooling costs for the twin Pump system had been paid.
The responsible Managers were not prepared to pay for the new Tooling to make what would have been a "slip in" Plastic Baffle System for the standard Oil Pan.
One of Life's little disappointments

Cheers
John

[quaybook]

Sorry to take this thread away from baffling techniques, but just how bad is the oil surge problem with a standard sump? I've booked my S2 for the Club Lotus track day at Castle Combe in May. I do not intend to drive it aggressively there, just fairly quickly to get to know the car. Since I bought it 18 months ago it has been in bits most of the time so there has been little opportunity to drive the car at all, never mind quickly. From comments on this Forum I'm beginning to think I'd better cancel, if mildly spirited road driving can cause oil pressure loss, even a moderate pace at Castle Combe is bound to. What do people think?
In the longer run I'd like to get the sump baffled but I doubt the sump will come off with the engine insitu. I've a Lotus galvanised replacement chassis with a non removable crossmember and the engine/bell housing plate appears to be in one piece. So it is an engine out job?
Vernon

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Sorry to take this thread away from baffling techniques, but just how bad is the oil surge problem with a standard sump? I've booked my S2 for the Club Lotus track day at Castle Combe in May. I do not intend to drive it aggressively there, just fairly quickly to get to know the car. Since I bought it 18 months ago it has been in bits most of the time so there has been little opportunity to drive the car at all, never mind quickly. From comments on this Forum I'm beginning to think I'd better cancel, if mildly spirited road driving can cause oil pressure loss, even a moderate pace at Castle Combe is bound to. What do people think?
In the longer run I'd like to get the sump baffled but I doubt the sump will come off with the engine insitu. I've a Lotus galvanised replacement chassis with a non removable crossmember and the engine/bell housing plate appears to be in one piece. So it is an engine out job?
Vernon

Vernon,

you'll be OK just make sure ALL of your Fluid levels, especially the Engine Oil are up to Mark before you go on track.
I think it was Rohan who mentioned allowable overfill on the Engine Oil.
As far as I know most Elan Racers practice overfilling & expect to see oil in the catch tank after a race.
Most of the comments in this thread have been referring mainly to serious Race Car modifications & Race conditions are a lot more arduous than a Sprint or Track Day.

John