Big Wing Sump

[J J DIKKE]

Hello
I am considering attempting to replicate a rear bowl big wing sump, suitable for the twin cam in the MK 1 Escort. This would give me additional oil capacity. Does anyone have diagrams/drawings or sketches giving dimensions that I could use to get me close to a suitable shape ?

I have two old rear bowl sumps to experiment with.

Thank you

[ceejay]

Some big wing sump pics for you to look at... sorry, no measurements. We had this sump in the workshop a couple of years ago doing some repair work... I just found the pics, so thought I would post. personally, I think these big wing sumps are quite ugly, they are also terribly difficult to clean properly, which becomes evident on a close up inspection. The big wing construction consists of a secondary press formed winged skin placed over the main sump and then welded on...hence my "ugly construction" comment, but it is what it is, and if that's OK, then go for it. They are also very heavy.

[2cams70]

Some big wing sump pics for you to look at... sorry, no measurements. We had this sump in the workshop a couple of years ago doing some repair work... I just found the pics, so thought I would post. personally, I think these big wing sumps are quite ugly, they are also terribly difficult to clean properly, which becomes evident on a close up inspection. The big wing construction consists of a secondary press formed winged skin placed over the main sump and then welded on...hence my "ugly construction" comment, but it is what it is, and if that's OK, then go for it. They are also very heavy.

If you take the time to properly examine an original unmolested big wing sump you soon come to the realization that it's actually quite a clever design. Much cleverer than what you see in most aftermarket attempts.

The butcherers unfortunately have had a very good go at the example in your pictures

[h20hamelan]

Tough to tell from the pictures, could there more comments on the cleverness of it all please.
When changing oil, do you need to have the car angled more towards the drain?

[ceejay]

I have never liked the thought of a big wing sump... least of all on an elan, there are far more elegant solutions than fitting a big wing sump.

I know they were common on competition twin cam Escorts back in the day... But if the big wing is an attempt at preventing oil surge, then the real answer is to build/fabricate/install a gated and baffled sump. Rohan has competed in Australian historic events in his S4 Lotus elan for a long time with a gated and baffled sump, and to be honest, that is all that is required, because they work one hundred percent.
The twink sump capacity is 4litres, and with oil cooler and lines Inc maybe add another.5liter, more than enough capacity for proper engine lubrication, and pretty much all the twin cam requires.

The gated/baffled design sits in the standard twin cam sump, all the trick bits are inside with out the need for side wings etc.
There is more discussion on the topic here:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17554&start=15
But good luck with what ever you decide to do.

[2cams70]

But if the big wing is an attempt at preventing oil surge, then the real answer is to build/fabricate/install a gated and baffled sump.

The Escort Twin Cam sump is actually a gated and baffled design and a very clever one - you need to see an unmolested example. Unfortunately mine is all restored and assembled to the engine so I can't take pictures.

The wings are there to increase oil capacity not just to prevent surge. As well as improving cooling this also means the oil isn't worked as hard because there's more of it.

There were definitely some smart engineers working for Ford UK back then. The Escort Twin Cam and even the pushrod engined 1,600cc Mexico all had the big wing sump and a separate oil cooler fitted as standard equipment from the factory whereas the Elan just used a standard Cortina sump and no cooler.

[ceejay]

Well, I guess its horses for courses isn't it, They just look like an after thought to cure problem/s that existed at the time. An efficient oil cooler will prevent the oil from getting too hot and losing its viscosity. And there is probably no real need for a greater volume of oil. But if a big wing sump creates excitement then that's great... I would still choose the swinging gate and baffled sump any day... just my humble opinion.

Re the photos, I posted them out of pure interest sake, it is not my sump, I did some minor repair work on it, that's all, I was not particularly impressed by what I saw.

The sump on the twink is not a standard Cortina sump, if you sit the two side by side you will note the pan of the twink sump is somewhat expanded for greater capacity, but everything else is the same. Orig pressed steel twink sumps (Six bolt type) are getting hard to find, we've converted several of the older four bolt sumps to six bolt lip seal, but they are drying up also.

[2cams70]

The sump on the twink is not a standard Cortina sump, if you sit the two side by side you will note the pan of the twink sump is somewhat expanded for greater capacity, but everything else is the same. Orig pressed steel twink sumps (Six bolt type) are getting hard to find, we've converted several of the older four bolt sumps to six bolt lip seal, but they are drying up also.

There were multiple variations of Cortina sumps depending on the engine it was originally fitted to and where it sat in the evolutionary timescale. Ford even went to the extent of having different capacity sumps depending on the cc of the engine it was being fitted to. In the crossflow series sumps fitted to Escorts - 1100/1300 sumps are less capacity than 1600cc sumps. They probably examined engine oil temps and chose accordingly (not too cold not too hot - just right).

I'd suggest that whether or not your Elan sump has a bulge or not may depend more on the production year. They would have just used whatever Ford happened to be using on Cortinas at the same time.

In the Escort application with rear bowl sump and starter motor and steering column shaft in the way the packaging requirements are much more difficult and a winged sump makes sense.

[rgh0]

The big wing escort sump shown by Ceejay appears to have never had any swinging baffle gates fitted, at least I can see no attachment holes or bolts for one. It also looks identical to the pictures in this link and others

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1601869

Also from the link and the holes cut to access it for cleaning the one in the link above it appears to have no swinging baffles and it sure was hard to clean judging from the holes cut .

Many other photos on the web that show the Rear bowl winged sump and they all appear to have a welded in windage tray above the sump bowl with no access into the bowl for cleaning or fitting of swing gates ?

Can you describe how the original Ford swinging gate baffles were fitted and what has been altered in the sump shown that started this thread as it appears similar to many other "original" sump photos on the web

cheers
Rohan

[661]

On the question of oil surge in a racing Elan, my engine builders elegant solution is to "fill to the 'F' of 'FULL'"

[ceejay]

Well...Err yes, I think we all do that... But then there's the problem of the very basic std baffle in the elan sump, as well as the RHS/front placement of the oil pickup in the sump... both contribute to the cause of oil surge. My road elan used to suffer from the curse... but no more, the gated and baffled sump is definitely the answer for very fast road elan, or historic competition elan... where dry sump system is banned. Its a very simple design, and 100% reliable always.

[661]

Well...Err yes, I think we all do that... But then there's the problem of the very basic std baffle in the elan sump, as well as the RHS/front placement of the oil pickup in the sump... both contribute to the cause of oil surge. My road elan used to suffer from the curse... but no more, the gated and baffled sump is definitely the answer for very fast road elan, or historic competition elan... where dry sump system is banned. Its a very simple design, and 100% reliable always.

There are some baffles as well, but if I recall they looked a bit different to Rohan's masterpiece

[661]

I was at Brands last Saturday and no issues on the usual culprit, the long right hander at Clearways/Clark curve

[ceejay]

May the luck of the Irish be with you.

[rgh0]

On the question of oil surge in a racing Elan, my engine builders elegant solution is to "fill to the 'F' of 'FULL'"

I find my engine empties itself to a few mm below the full line on the track. I ascribe this to the oil surge forward under braking leading to the chain picking up oil and flinging it up and loosing oil out the breather in the centre front of the cam cover. Once down to this level I loose no more. I can over fill the sump on the road and never loose anything into the catch tank.

cheers
Rohan